Stayers Hurdle 2021

[Kautostar]

Why not go for the Grade 1 at Aintree 3 weeks later though?

I don't understand why everything has to be at Cheltenham? They might as well move the Grand National, scrap the rest of the national hunt season and be done with it.

The only people that gain from extra races are the trainers, owners and jockeys. Racing fans are the ones that lose out and the sport will end up much poorer for it.

We need the best horses to race against each other imo.

Nothing stopping anything running at aintree but we all know its an afterthought. If you come out of Cheltenham ok then you go to aintree but you very rarely target aintree unless your horse isn’t good enough for Cheltenham. Aintree is fun but like I posted yesterday nobody remembers who wins there

[Istabraq]

I think it's bigger than ante post betting. Racing would end up uncompetitive. Let's face it, there aren't enough good NH horses to go round as it is.

It doesn’t worry Punchestown, I posted somewhere the other day they have multiple low value/grade races and they still have 7 bumpers, none of that seems to bother them to be fair...

[Faugheen_Machine]

Nothing stopping anything running at aintree but we all know its an afterthought. If you come out of Cheltenham ok then you go to aintree but you very rarely target aintree unless your horse isn’t good enough for Cheltenham. Aintree is fun but like I posted yesterday nobody remembers who wins there

Except I proved that statement a load of nonsense.

Cheltenham is fun, just the way it is.

[Kautostar]

Except I proved that statement a load of nonsense.

Cheltenham is fun, just the way it is.

Still think you googled it

Nobody would have got lami serge unless they were crazy enough to back it

[Faugheen_Machine]

Still think you googled it

Nobody would have got lami serge unless they were crazy enough to back it

I actually did back him, saw him as an each way bet to nothing.

You should go to Aintree for the national meeting, I think it'd change your opinion of their festival.

Also, Aintree cut patterns into the grass, I love that touch #simplepleasures.

[Garrison Savannah]

Agreed. I did the Friday and Saturday of the National meeting a couple of years back. Enjoyed it thoroughly, extremely good quality racing.

[Kautostar]

I actually did back him, saw him as an each way bet to nothing.

You should go to Aintree for the national meeting, I think it'd change your opinion of their festival.

Also, Aintree cut patterns into the grass, I love that touch #simplepleasures.

I don’t dislike aintree far from it. It’s a fun good quality meeting that was sadly missed last year. I’ve been twice actually was there the year A.P won the national, was a great day out. However it’s a bit like comparing the champions league to the fa cup

[Kevloaf]

People may be missing the point of CHAMPIONSHIP races.

The intermediate trip doesn't matter at the top level. No one gives a fuck who the best horse is that isn't a 2 miler, or a proper stayer do they? Not really


No-one gives a fuck who the Ryanair winner is, or ever will be. Nobody. Cares. No-one is getting a Min tattoo, it's great he had his day, but all it does is add to the fact Altior was a proper Champion!


It's not a horses fault if they aren't a 2m or 3m horse, but who cares at Cheltenham where it's about THE BEST. There are other places to clash! The King George does fine as an in between for 2milers and stayers in it's history.

It's like 7f on the flat.... who cares who the best 7f horse is?




At novice level, I can accept the intermediate trips, as they're (in theory) aiming towards an aim of winning a QMCC or GC.

Having handicaps at different distances makes perfect sense, there can only be this arguement for TOP LEVEL, CHAMPIONSHIP races not needing the intermediate trip at Cheltenham,

You will not be able to provide one example, in history, where having a Mares Hurdle or Ryanair have made the festival better. Whichever race you come up with, where it was 'close' or 'exciting' or a 'great clash', I will say 'put those horses in the mix in the relative division and it's much better.

What would then happen, horse horses like Oscar Whiskey caught between the two, is 'unlucky', but it makes the Aintree race worth more, also enhancing the sport and season as a whole, as they [winners] take each other on in a potentially mouth-watering clash, all of them, at the intermediate trip! .... alright it's not Cheltenham, but wow wouldn't that be great seeing festival champiopns clash in the middle?!



Horse racing is about finding out which horses are the best.... at some point (CHAMPIONSHIP LEVEL) you have to stop watering it down.... otherwise it can get silly and we have grey races etc. Or verteran races. Or races for female jockeys....... there are places for all these things, but not at Cheltenham. Cheltenham should be the end point of a funnel, forcing us to find out who the absolute tip-top horses are. The ones people are trying to breed, trying to ride, trying to own!




I know I'll have annoyed some people here, and I'm only old enough to have ever known the festival as a 4-day event....but I think less is more...and can see why people are so adverse to it growing. I'd agree. It's already too diluted to be something to be truely proud of.

[Saxon Warrior]

Nice one Kev

Your point is a strong one.

Its part if the reason that I was questioning why McFab could not have one big swing at the Stayers this March.

Who cares for the Aintree Hurdle in comparison.

Wheres the 6-month long antepost markets for any race at Aintree apart from the Grand National.

No big run-up to any of the races bar the big one, nothing, nada.

[Dandrew99]

I for one actually really like the Ryanair...

Is there not a pretty strong argument that there is actually more quality that will be in the Ryanair this year than there will be in the QMCC? If I had to choose one race to watch at the minute, I'd pick the Ryanair over the CC.

I know the counter argument to this is that if the Ryanair didn't exist, the Champion Chase (and maybe GC) would be stronger, but again I don't 100% buy into that. For me, Championship races are where we get to watch 165+ rated horses going up against each other, but aside from Min (who is probably 2-3 pounds worse over 2m anyway) I don't see any of them running to that sort of level in the CC or GC. Imperial Aura is a prime example, I'd be fairly confident he can run 165+ in the Ryanair, but would he actually add to the quality in the CC or GC? Not for me

[Kevloaf]

Nice one Kev

Your point is a strong one.

Its part if the reason that I was questioning why McFab could not hive the Stayers one big swing this March.

Who cares for the Aintree Hurdle in comparison.

Wheres the 6-month long antepost markets for any race at Aintree apart from the Grand National.

No big run up to any of the races bar the big one, nothing.

Ante post is such a small part of things in the grand scheme for the sport...so for Paul, who's had thousands of horses but a handful of CHAMPIONS he probably knows he doesn't have a Champion so is doing best by the horse and it's connections to maximise what it can achieve? To him (and rightly) the King George is on par, it's a huge race... so fair play to him if he's aiming for that long term in my mind. Having the King George as an actual target doesn't upset me whatsoever... even if it takes away from Cheltenham. Don't get me wrong, McFabulous in the Stayers would be great, but I don't feel it takes away hugely from the race.

To argue against my own point though...... I'd be content with them having a "Ryanair" Hurdle, and the Ryanair, but making them Grade 2's.... same with the Mares Hurdle......so far enough, horses can still 'duck' the clashes if they choose to, but it becomes a decision for connections to make.... do they want a festival winner, for less money and kudos and having to give weight, or do they want to see if they have a Champion....

I think that's a fair place to meet in the middle....

[Istabraq]

Part of the problem is that we, the punters/public, have built Cheltenham to be the beast it now is and we generally think that every horse should target the week, I’ve come to realise there are another 51 weeks of the racing year and some 10,000 other races that have their place and if you are a 20f horse swerve Cheltenham and go to Aintree, if you’re a 13yo stayer swerve the Kim Muir and go to Sandown for the vets series.
But a racecourse that has undergone major redevelopment and can host 70,000 paying punters will always market the week as a kind of champions week when in reality missing the race because conditions don’t suit is the right move...

[Kevloaf]

I for one actually really like the Ryanair...

Is there not a pretty strong argument that there is actually more quality that will be in the Ryanair this year than there will be in the QMCC? If I had to choose one race to watch at the minute, I'd pick the Ryanair over the CC.

I know the counter argument to this is that if the Ryanair didn't exist, the Champion Chase (and maybe GC) would be stronger, but again I don't 100% buy into that. For me, Championship races are where we get to watch 165+ rated horses going up against each other, but aside from Min (who is probably 2-3 pounds worse over 2m anyway) I don't see any of them running to that sort of level in the CC or GC. Imperial Aura is a prime example, I'd be fairly confident he can run 165+ in the Ryanair, but would he actually add to the quality in the CC or GC? Not for me

For me you've hit the nail of the head though.

Why do I care if Imperial Aura can run to 165 if it's not at 2 miles or 3+ miles? At Cheltenham, I don't see why I need to know that at Championship level.

I think we all absolutely loved Vautour.... and his Ryanair win was sensational wasn't it.... but do you genuinely have no part of you that would have wanted to see if he'd have won the Gold Cup that year? Even if he didn't, would you have slammed them for trying?

As I've said in the post above, make the Ryanair a Grade 2, and fine, Imperial Aura can step out of handicap company last year to become a Grade 2 festival open chase winner..... but he'll not be a CHAMPION - even if he wins the Ryanair he ain't a Champion.... just like Vautour isn't! Not the horses fault, and I promise I love Vautour.... but he is not a Champion despite his Ryanair win! Same as Min, or Frodon.

Frodon is a great example too, won the Ryanair, creditable, now won a King George which is a much bigger achievement and now they'll go fo the Gold Cup! Fair fucking play to them...... if they don't win the Gold Cup, he loses absolutely no creditability...

[Dandrew99]

For me you've hit the nail of the head though.

Why do I care if Imperial Aura can run to 165 if it's not at 2 miles or 3+ miles? At Cheltenham, I don't see why I need to know that at Championship level.

I think we all absolutely loved Vautour.... and his Ryanair win was sensational wasn't it.... but do you genuinely have no part of you that would have wanted to see if he'd have won the Gold Cup that year? Even if he didn't, would you have slammed them for trying?

As I've said in the post above, make the Ryanair a Grade 2, and fine, Imperial Aura can step out of handicap company last year to become a Grade 2 festival open chase winner..... but he'll not be a CHAMPION - even if he wins the Ryanair he ain't a Champion.... just like Vautour isn't! Not the horses fault, and I promise I love Vautour.... but he is not a Champion despite his Ryanair win!

Well you guys are much much more experienced than me. I've been going to Cheltenham every year since I was 18 (I'm 26 now) but I was very much a casual until probably the past 2 years or so. Mainly thanks to this place

I guess from my point view, imagine that you could clone Min a few times and Mins Minions (I'm too proud of that) were the best 2 mile chasers, theoretically all running to 165ish in the CC or 170 in the Ryanair. Would you rather see them clash over 2 miles or 2 and a half? I'd rather see them over two and a half, as it would be the higher quality race

[Kevloaf]

Well you guys are much much more experienced than me. I've been going to Cheltenham every year since I was 18 (I'm 26 now) but I was very much a casual until probably the past 2 years or so. Mainly thanks to this place

I guess from my point view, imagine that you could clone Min a few times and Mins Minions (I'm too proud of that) were the best 2 mile chasers, theoretically all running to 165ish in the CC or 170 in the Ryanair. Would you rather see them clash over 2 miles or 2 and a half? I'd rather see them over two and a half, as it would be the higher quality race

Ah, well fair enough I see exactly what you're saying.

For me, as the QMCC will always, always be more important (based on the fact a 2 mile chaser is the absolute pinacle of the NH game IMO - as in, there is nothing better than seeing a two-mile chaser going full speed attacking fences etc) then I'd definitely prefer them all in the QMCC. The chance of seeing a Master Minded or Sprinter Sacre, or Altior (versus Min) for me is so much better than Min versus Saint Calvados and Imperial Aura or Frodon etc.

it's not to say I can't enjoy the other races.... Min beating Politilogue both times at Aintree was fantastic.... but my God I'd love to see Min in the QMCC this year..... the Champion Chaser is Politilogue, and I feel Min can beat him!.... With Altior, Min's absolute nemsis stil lthere but not as good as he was, and a stable mate in Chacun Pour Soi in the mix to potentially show them all up?





It all comes down to, for me, thinking 2 mile Chasers are the reason I love the sport.... if we didn't have Sprinter Sacre, Master Minded, Altior... I wouldn't love this sport as much as I do. Vautour in the QMCC would have been amazing to see too....


I just don't (and never will) care about the intermediate trip enough to consider a horse who is at it's optimum at that trip to matter enough to transend the sport.



Just as a point to mull..... Kauto Star would have won multiple Ryanair's.... Denman could have won the Gold Cup, Masterminded the QMCC and Kauto the Ryanair.

How much worse would that have been.... I know it was before your time, but that's the reason I believe what I believe. Imagine Paul Nicholls thought like you did.... we'd never, ever, have had the Denman vs Kauto vs Long Run battles.

.........




Also, it's a bit loaded to ask if I'd rather see a horse run to 165 in the QMCC but the same horse run to 170 in a Ryanair... I'd hope the horse could run to 170 in either, and if they can't so what...at Cheltenham.... if they go to Aintree, and run 170 over further, having run 165, so-be-it... that'd add to both meetings IMO!