Stayers Hurdle 2021

[Dandrew99]

Ah, well fair enough I see exactly what you're saying.

For me, as the QMCC will always, always be more important (based on the fact a 2 mile chaser is the absolute pinacle of the NH game IMO - as in, there is nothing better than seeing a two-mile chaser going full speed attacking fences etc) then I'd definitely prefer them all in the QMCC. The chance of seeing a Master Minded or Sprinter Sacre, or Altior (versus Min) for me is so much better than Min versus Saint Calvados and Imperial Aura or Frodon etc.

it's not to say I can't enjoy the other races.... Min beating Politilogue both times at Aintree was fantastic.... but my God I'd love to see Min in the QMCC this year..... the Champion Chaser is Politilogue, and I feel Min can beat him!.... With Altior, Min's absolute nemsis stil lthere but not as good as he was, and a stable mate in Chacun Pour Soi in the mix to potentially show them all up?





It all comes down to, for me, thinking 2 mile Chasers are the reason I love the sport.... if we didn't have Sprinter Sacre, Master Minded, Altior... I wouldn't love this sport as much as I do. Vautour in the QMCC would have been amazing to see too....


I just don't (and never will) care about the intermediate trip enough to consider a horse who is at it's optimum at that trip to matter enough to transend the sport.

I can definitely see your point too. I think the biggest difference in our opinions is that you have seen all these great 2m chasers, you've experienced the history of the sport where I only have a very limited experience in comparison. Aside from Altior, I haven't witnessed any of these greats or been particularly attached to them.

I couldn't agree more that the Champion Chase is the pinnacle though! Always the highlight of the week for me. It's a trade off, I want the CC to be as strong as possible but I also want to see horses at their best.

I think we should just go back to my cloning idea then we are both happy

[Kautostar]

I’ve said it a million times on here already but I don’t see why middle distance horses/races are so frowned upon when the only argument is it dilutes another race. So what if it dilutes another race that they probably wouldn’t have won anyway because it wasn’t the horses optimum trip. Vautour probably wouldn’t have won the gold cup that year because on all known evidence he didn’t stay well enough. His optimum was over the middle distance and there’s nothing wrong with that. So imo vautour, frodon and min etc are all champions.

Do olympians run over 100m or 10,000m only....no there’s plenty in between.
Do boxers only become a real champion if they win heavyweight or lightweight championships? No there’s loads of weight classes in between.

[Kautothegreat8]

As in any sport it's all about History.

The 4 championship races at the festival will always be the most important races in any jumps season.

As I wrote that last paragraph I was disagreeing with myself. I actually think the stayers is a joke of a race. Mainly used for horses with lack of speed for a champion hurdle or not good enough to win a gold cup.

In recent times trainers seem to run scared of so called good things in these championship races just to say they had a winner at the festival.

I think the Skeltons are trying to buck those trends at present.

Come on Trainers ....... Grab you're bollocks and give the people what they want. The more quality we can get in the Championship races, the more rivalries will develope and in turn push the sport forward.

Moscow Flyer, Azertyuoip, Well Chief ......... would that even happen in modern times ?

I have my doubts.

[Kevloaf]

I’ve said it a million times on here already but I don’t see why middle distance horses/races are so frowned upon when the only argument is it dilutes another race. So what if it dilutes another race that they probably wouldn’t have won anyway because it wasn’t the horses optimum trip. Vautour probably wouldn’t have won the gold cup that year because on all known evidence he didn’t stay well enough. His optimum was over the middle distance and there’s nothing wrong with that. So imo vautour, frodon and min etc are all champions.

Do olympians run over 100m or 10,000m only....no there’s plenty in between.
Do boxers only become a real champion if they win heavyweight or lightweight championships? No there’s loads of weight classes in between.

And how many 100m Gold Medalists can you name..... and how many 800m Gold Medalists?


Vautour may not have won (you seem convinced he wouldn't have, I disagree!)

Is that not the point though, if he didn't, so what...he could have gone to Aintree, bolted up, and I'd feel the same about him...I'd think what a brilliant horse, nearly won a King George, was an amazing intermediate horse....

Still a 'champion' at that distance, but at least he would have given it a go...



No downside.

[Kevloaf]

I can definitely see your point too. I think the biggest difference in our opinions is that you have seen all these great 2m chasers, you've experienced the history of the sport where I only have a very limited experience in comparison. Aside from Altior, I haven't witnessed any of these greats or been particularly attached to them.

I couldn't agree more that the Champion Chase is the pinnacle though! Always the highlight of the week for me. It's a trade off, I want the CC to be as strong as possible but I also want to see horses at their best.

I think we should just go back to my cloning idea then we are both happy

Yeah fair enough, and I'm only 33 so will get trumped by experience when people have seen the golden generation of 2m chasers.... I just try to not be swayed by the fact that what I've seen doesn't mean it's the best... just because you didn't see them, doesn't mean it's not true?

I didn't see Istabraq, or Moscow Flyer..... but I respect that they were fantastic.




My best example is Frankel, I got in to horse racing because of Frankel, I absolutely love Frankel, I watch that documentry about him at least once a month - I got a birthday card from my Mum with 14 Frankel silks on it, and the dates... I have a Frankel painting in my living room that my Uncle painted for me.... I feel he's the best horse to ever live.... but he only ran at a mile... despite how much I love him, can I knock people that prefer Sea The Stars? Absolutely not.... I have no opinion on what would have happened and I love what Frankel did but I can't deny that not knowing if he'd have won at a mile and a half is a huge shame. He didn't NEED to prove it, but if he had have done.... and that's what we want... we want to know what the BEST horses can actually achieve.

[Kevloaf]

As in any sport it's all about History.

The 4 championship races at the festival will always be the most important races in any jumps season.

As I wrote that last paragraph I was disagreeing with myself. I actually think the stayers is a joke of a race. Mainly used for horses with lack of speed for a champion hurdle or not good enough to win a gold cup.

In recent times trainers seem to run scared of so called good things in these championship races just to say they had a winner at the festival.

I think the Skeltons are trying to buck those trends at present.

Come on Trainers ....... Grab you're bollocks and give the people what they want. The more quality we can get in the Championship races, the more rivalries will develope and in turn push the sport forward.

Moscow Flyer, Azertyuoip, Well Chief ......... would that even happen in modern times ?

I have my doubts.

Yeah, you could argue the King George is a more important race than the Stayers Hurdle.

Maybe the Tingle Creek is too?



I agree though, I completely agree.

[Kautostar]

And how many 100m Gold Medalists can you name..... and how many 800m Gold Medalists?


Vautour may not have won (you seem convinced he wouldn't have, I disagree!)

Is that not the point though, if he didn't, so what...he could have gone to Aintree, bolted up, and I'd feel the same about him...I'd think what a brilliant horse, nearly won a King George, was an amazing intermediate horse....

Still a 'champion' at that distance, but at least he would have given it a go...



No downside.

Would we really think of vautour in the way that most of us do if he hadn’t run in and won the marsh and ryanair? I’m not so sure we would. We’d all be saying he was a nearly horse because he came second in the king George or 3rd in the gold cup if he got outstayed. We only love him because he was a true champion over the middle distance which imo was his optimum trip.

[Pendil]

As an oldie I definitely see the requirement for an interim G1 open hurdle over about 2 1/2 miles

[Dandrew99]

Yeah fair enough, and I'm only 33 so will get trumped by experience when people have seen the golden generation of 2m chasers.... I just try to not be swayed by the fact that what I've seen doesn't mean it's the best... just because you didn't see them, doesn't mean it's not true?

I didn't see Istabraq, or Moscow Flyer..... but I respect that they were fantastic.




My best example is Frankel, I got in to horse racing because of Frankel, I absolutely love Frankel, I watch that documentry about him at least once a month - I got a birthday card from my Mum with 14 Frankel silks on it, and the dates... I have a Frankel painting in my living room that my Uncle painted for me.... I feel he's the best horse to ever live.... but he only ran at a mile... despite how much I love him, can I knock people that prefer Sea The Stars? Absolutely not.... I have no opinion on what would have happened and I love what Frankel did but I can't deny that not knowing if he'd have won at a mile and a half is a huge shame. He didn't NEED to prove it, but if he had have done.... and that's what we want... we want to know what the BEST horses can actually achieve.

Yeah of course I respect them, but it's totally different when you actually get to experience them. I'd say Envoi was the one that really got me to fall in love with the sport, I've loved following him through from his bumper season. He's actually a pretty decent example.

If he turned turn be a 180 horse over the intermediate distance, but didn't stay the GC trip, wouldn't you want to see the best horse in their best conditions? For me, that is the pinnacle.

Also boxing is a terrible example, every cruiserweight champion ends up going to heavyweight to prove themselves and does anyone care about light heavyweight?!

[Kevloaf]

Would we really think of vautour in the way that most of us do if he hadn’t run in and won the marsh and ryanair? I’m not so sure we would. We’d all be saying he was a nearly horse because he came second in the king George or 3rd in the gold cup if he got outstayed. We only love him because he was a true champion over the middle distance which imo was his optimum trip.

....and if he went on to Aintree to prove that, then fair play.

We 'love' Vautour for his Ryanair performance, but no-one that loves him surely thinks they're glad he didn't try the Gold Cup?

I'd genuinely have rather seen him in the QMCC than the Ryanair.... 2016, UND 4/6 fav, Sprinter Sacre comes back.... imagine Vautour running in that race in the same style he did the Ryanair?

You wouldn't have enjoyed that?

Or Vautour running in the Gold Cup like he did for 2m5f in the Gold Cup?



I just fail to see the upside.

[Kautothegreat8]

Yeah, you could argue the King George is a more important race than the Stayers Hurdle.

Maybe the Tingle Creek is too?



I agree though, I completely agree.

You're completely correct, I would have both in front of the stayers.

Any sport is built on rivalries. I think Racing has a huge issue as there is far too many options to avoid certain horses.

Brave Inca, Harchibald, Hardy Eustace, Macs Joy.......... this simply doesnt happen anymore.

Its Sunday night and I've wound myself up even thinking about it.

[Kevloaf]

Yeah of course I respect them, but it's totally different when you actually get to experience them. I'd say Envoi was the one that really got me to fall in love with the sport, I've loved following him through from his bumper season. He's actually a pretty decent example.

If he turned turn be a 180 horse over the intermediate distance, but didn't stay the GC trip, wouldn't you want to see the best horse in their best conditions? For me, that is the pinnacle.

Also boxing is a terrible example, every cruiserweight champion ends up going to heavyweight to prove themselves and does anyone care about light heavyweight?!

Haha I agree with the boxing analogy......my electronics teacher (Mr Leigh) was at one point the fastest 'white man' in Britain (around 10 and a half seconds for the hundred metres).... impressive, but who the fuck really cares when so many people have gone sub 10 seconds? He was amazing, but not the elite.. he mopped up on Sports day in the teachers versus students race obviously... that's like winning the Ryanair



The Envoi Allen example sums it up for me.... the fact you want him to win the Ryanair and put in a 180+ performance rather than try a Gold Cup makes me feel like I want to cry. To answer, I would 100% want to see him PROVE he isn't a Gold Cup horse before putting in a 180+ performance at the intermediate trip the year after.... if he did that, I'd still love him of course... but he wouldn't be better than Kauto Star. If he wins the Marsh and the Gold Cup, he may well be the best NH horse since Arkle. I want him to try and be the best ever.... I don't want him to be the next Vautour.

[Kautostar]

I could talk about this all night but I think the stayers hurdle thread is starting to get derailed so il just watch vautour win the Ryanair on youtube and go to bed dreaming of owning a top middle distance horse in the future

[Istabraq]

.my electronics teacher (Mr Leigh) was at one point the fastest 'white man' in Britain (around 10 and a half seconds for the hundred metres).... impressive, but who the fuck really cares when so many people have gone sub 10 seconds? He was amazing, but not the elite.. he mopped up on Sports day in the teachers versus students race obviously... that's like winning the Ryanair
.

Brilliant, another post of the year candidate...

[Kevloaf]

You're completely correct, I would have both in front of the stayers.

Any sport is built on rivalries. I think Racing has a huge issue as there is far too many options to avoid certain horses.

Brave Inca, Harchibald, Hardy Eustace, Macs Joy.......... this simply doesnt happen anymore.

Its Sunday night and I've wound myself up even thinking about it.

Yeah you're absolutely right.... just look at how hard everyone has gotten over Paisley Park versus Thyme Hill... those clashes should be normal, the fact 'that' is the best clash we've had this year speaks volumes about where the sport it.

PTKO, Notebook and Chacun Pour Soi probably the next biggest clash we've had... which was great too, but was only there become Henry De Bromhead is a bit of a ledge.