Champion Hurdle 2021

[BookieBasher]

Fair play. In that case don't back her. Always go with your gut

Gone in with a free bet double Honey 12s and BDD 5s at 77/1. You watch benie go over fences in March.......

[Quevega]

I know where you are coming from but she was trained to win a Mares Hurdle all last season not a Champion Hurdle. It makes a huge difference. The Irish Champion Hurdle was a complete afterthought, she was almost bullied into going for it. She jumped poorly in the race but still won. The Mares Hurdle was a tactical race, almost run like a 2 mile race, it turned into a bit of a sprint but she showed a real turn of foot to quicken up round the bend into the straight which won the race for her. That proved to me she has what it takes to mix with the best over 2 miles. She is still only 6 and has had just 8 races, won them all and has won both her races over the minimum distance. IMO there is still a huge amount of improvement to come and who knows what heights she can reach. We should also not forget she to will get the half a stone Mares allowance and I don't see any Irish horse being able to beat her over any distance. Epatante will be a very hard horse to beat at levels but if anyone is going to do it then Honey will be the one. It's strange but last season I was against everyone on here saying she was Champion Hurdle bound and said she would win the Mares Hurdle. This year, roles are reversed. I could be wrong....but I doubt it.

1 - No it's not
2 - No it wasn't
3 - No she wasn't

The rest of the thought process is fine with me and I think she could definitely go close in the Champion. And they may well want to go for it this year. Although if it's a deeper race this year and not full of shit. I'll be annoyed again, that she went mares last time.
But from my betting point of view I am comfortable now that Epatante is better.
It's just if anything happens to her, is my concern.
If they're serious about the 2 mile target, it will be interesting to see where she turns up first time. and at Christmas.

[Lobos]

1 - No it's not
2 - No it wasn't
3 - No she wasn't

The rest of the thought process is fine with me and I think she could definitely go close in the Champion. And they may well want to go for it this year. Although if it's a deeper race this year and not full of shit. I'll be annoyed again, that she went mares last time.
But from my betting point of view I am comfortable now that Epatante is better.
It's just if anything happens to her, is my concern.
If they're serious about the 2 mile target, it will be interesting to see where she turns up first time. and at Christmas.

She's going for Hattons Grace then Irish Champion Hurdle............ then English Champion Hurdle.
Kenny Alexander ran her in Mares last year as that was her best chance of winning and he was first and foremost desperate to get a first Fez winner on the board. He's got that now. He also said last year that she will probably be the only horse he will ever own good enough to run in an English Champion Hurdle which is another reason I think they'll go for it this season.

[Kevloaf]

Darver Star.



Honeysuckle was nearly beaten by Darver Star.

I know we all love Envoi Allen, but he's the kinda horse that'll beat whatever he needs to...



The Honeysuckle Irish Champion Hurdle win was bang average. The notion she can win an actual Champion Hurdle is laughable.

She won't run, and if she does she'll be thrashed. She jumps a hurdle like it's a fucking bonfire.





It's also nonsense that they can 'train her differently' in my opinion..... my belief is that all a trainer can actually do is get a horse fit.... the mantra they could make one better over 2m than 3m is not a concept I'd be able to buy in to.

[JackieMoon33]

Darver Star.



Honeysuckle was nearly beaten by Darver Star.

I know we all love Envoi Allen, but he's the kinda horse that'll beat whatever he needs to...



The Honeysuckle Irish Champion Hurdle win was bang average. The notion she can win an actual Champion Hurdle is laughable.

She won't run, and if she does she'll be thrashed. She jumps a hurdle like it's a fucking bonfire.





It's also nonsense that they can 'train her differently' in my opinion..... my belief is that all a trainer can actually do is get a horse fit.... the mantra they could make one better over 2m than 3m is not a concept I'd be able to buy in to.

At the risk of being a ‘plonker’ again, I was confused that a horsed can be trained to be more effective over a certain trip, just by working them with pacier horses. Horses can gain stamina over time but you can’t suddenly turn a stayer into a two miler or vice versa. Trainers are very specific as to how they work horses and don’t want to leave anything on the gallops. They also do not run over race distance, at race pace or jump fences in the same way that they would do on the track. Physiological make up determines what distance a horse will be competitive at, not some sort of training regime. Yes you can teach them to jump better but you can’t make a sprinter a stayer. It’s the equivalent of saying that if the Kenyan athletics team sent all their athletes to train with the American sprinters, they’d suddenly turn into 100m contenders.

I think Honeysuckle is one of those horses who’s current best trip is probably over an intermediate distance. She’d be very competitive against most opposition over that trip but against the best two milers, she’d only be a place candidate at best in my eyes.

[Quevega]

At the risk of being a ‘plonker’ again, I was confused that a horsed can be trained to be more effective over a certain trip, just by working them with pacier horses. Horses can gain stamina over time but you can’t suddenly turn a stayer into a two miler or vice versa. Trainers are very specific as to how they work horses and don’t want to leave anything on the gallops. They also do not run over race distance, at race pace or jump fences in the same way that they would do on the track. Physiological make up determines what distance a horse will be competitive at, not some sort of training regime. Yes you can teach them to jump better but you can’t make a sprinter a stayer. It’s the equivalent of saying that if the Kenyan athletics team sent all their athletes to train with the American sprinters, they’d suddenly turn into 100m contenders.

I think Honeysuckle is one of those horses who’s current best trip is probably over an intermediate distance. She’d be very competitive against most opposition over that trip but against the best two milers, she’d only be a place candidate at best in my eyes.

I'm in agreement with most of that Jackie But..

The athletics analogy again - tut tut.

The Kenyans wouldn't become 100m Champions, but they could alter their body shape and diet and also learn sprinting techniques and attitude and therefore improve their speed.


A Horse running 2m or 2m 4f.
Their is literally no difference in technique. Diet. or Physicality. or mentality.

Pace judgement and race riding (Jockeys job) and accurate jumping - added to a natural cruising speed that most Class horses have. Will all help towards a more positive outcome over either trip.

edit - I would add that a horses diet will differ, if they are 5f sprinters vs 2 milers on the flat.
And they'll differ if ones a fat get and ones too skinny. And same with muscle mass.

[JackieMoon33]

I'm in agreement with most of that Jackie But..

The athletics analogy again - tut tut.

The Kenyans wouldn't become 100m Champions, but they could alter their body shape and diet and also learn sprinting techniques and attitude and therefore improve their speed.


A Horse running 2m or 2m 4f.
Their is literally no difference in technique. Diet. or Physicality. or mentality.

Pace judgement and race riding (Jockeys job) and accurate jumping - added to a natural cruising speed that most Class horses have. Will all help towards a more positive outcome over either trip.

edit - I would add that a horses diet will differ, if they are 5f sprinters vs 2 milers on the flat.
And they'll differ if ones a fat get and ones too skinny. And same with muscle mass.

The athletics analogy sums up the physiological aspect. A Kenyan runners body type and physiological make up is not suited to sprinting no matter much training they have. This relates then into the breeding of horses that dictates their physiological make up; Kodiac will never sire a Gold Cup winner and Flemensfirth won't sire a Nunthorpe winner.

[ComplyOrDie]

The athletics analogy sums up the physiological aspect. A Kenyan runners body type and physiological make up is not suited to sprinting no matter much training they have. This relates then into the breeding of horses that dictates their physiological make up; Kodiac will never sire a Gold Cup winner and Flemensfirth won't sire a Nunthorpe winner.

I thought you was being sarcastic because someone used Usain Bolt the other day to try to make a point

[JackieMoon33]

I thought you was being sarcastic because someone used Usain Bolt the other day to try to make a point

Oh I must have missed that one

Anyway, the main point is that I don't think Honey will become a Champion Hurdle contender.

[Priceiskey]

I thought they’ve already said Honeysuckle will go mares again this season? I’d also be shocked if she went for the champion. As others have said her hurdling isn’t the slickest and she will get outpaced in a fast run champion. If she ran I’d want double figures to entertain her.

[Quevega]

The athletics analogy sums up the physiological aspect. A Kenyan runners body type and physiological make up is not suited to sprinting no matter much training they have. This relates then into the breeding of horses that dictates their physiological make up; Kodiac will never sire a Gold Cup winner and Flemensfirth won't sire a Nunthorpe winner.

Yep, I'm with you on that.
Just the analogy was too extreme for the specific topic.
The physiological make up of a 2 mile hurdler or 2 mile and a half hurdler is negligible.
Which is why, if they're good enough then the trip don't matter as much as other factors.

I'd say Epatante would beat Honeysuckle over both trips/more often than not.
But it would be close, and depending on all the varying factors that go into races, Honey would come out on top every so often.

[Lobos]

I thought they’ve already said Honeysuckle will go mares again this season? I’d also be shocked if she went for the champion. As others have said her hurdling isn’t the slickest and she will get outpaced in a fast run champion. If she ran I’d want double figures to entertain her.

They definitely haven't made a decision yet. Her jumping in the Mares Hurdle was exceptional, quick and slick. She showed lots of pace in the Irish Champion Hurdle and would have won by 2/3 lengths if she wasn't hesitant at the last. If she ran in the English equivalent you'd be lucky to get 4/1 about her.

[Lobos]

Yep, I'm with you on that.
Just the analogy was too extreme for the specific topic.
The physiological make up of a 2 mile hurdler or 2 mile and a half hurdler is negligible.
Which is why, if they're good enough then the trip don't matter as much as other factors.

I'd say Epatante would beat Honeysuckle over both trips/more often than not.
But it would be close, and depending on all the varying factors that go into races, Honey would come out on top every so often.

Epatante v Honeysuckle really is a mouth watering thought. If they both come through their pre festival races unblemished then I'm certain it will happen. Racing needs these sort of match ups.

[charlie]

Epatante v Honeysuckle really is a mouth watering thought. If they both come through their pre festival races unblemished then I'm certain it will happen. Racing needs these sort of match ups.

It's unlikely to happen though so I don't see the point of repeated discussion on it.

In most instances trainers opt for the race they think they can win vs the mouth watering clash we all hope for.

She'd be far more likely to win the mares race again, which we know her connections favour.

I don't think they'll overcomplicate it, and to me she looks far better suited to 2m4f than 2m.

[Lobos]

It's unlikely to happen though so I don't see the point of repeated discussion on it.

In most instances trainers opt for the race they think they can win vs the mouth watering clash we all hope for.

She'd be far more likely to win the mares race again, which we know her connections favour.

I don't think they'll overcomplicate it, and to me she looks far better suited to 2m4f than 2m.

That's just it, her owner went for the Mares Hurdle last season as he was desperate to get a first Fez win. He's got that now. He also said that he will never own another horse like her capable of running in the Champion Hurdle so he can now tick that box this coming season. He doesn't need to send her to the Mares again. She's already been there and done it and beaten the best Mare Mullins has ever had . If she wins her two prep races then his dream will come true.