Pedigree Query

[OverTheLast]

Alright lads, the past 18 months I've started to take form study and punting more seriously but from October really hoping to start to kick on and have a great NH season. I'm always looking to learn and still young and new to the game in a lot of aspects. I'm wondering what the best platform is in relation to giving best info on pedigree angles to a horse ie if the Sire's progeny act on a certain type of ground or another example would be how many % of a dam's offspring win first time out etc .. Racing Post is decent enough but was wondering if any where else I should be looking?

Hopefully that makes sense! And is in the right section .. cheers!

[Istabraq]

https://bloodstock.racing/

This will give you a heap of info but the RP cover pretty much everything you need.

There are others far more qualified than me to comment but personally I mostly ignore the Dam’s line, top stallions will cover 400 mares a year and most mares will only be covered a handful of times, rightly or wrongly I always consider the sire’s line more informative.

[Kevloaf]

This probably isn't helpful but in NH racing I put little to no stock into the pedigrees at all.

It definitely isn't an area I'd see enough benefit in (results/profit) to make it a worthwhile investment of time.

I think it's because for me in NH racing, how they get from A to B (and C - how fast they run away from the obstacle) makes so much more difference than how the parents other children act on different ground etc.

It does absolutely no harm to also know the information, but I would never ever be put off a horse because of the pedigree. No offense intended to those that do put time into it, I know some of our excellent contributors do...that's just my opinion on it.

[ComplyOrDie]

I love looking at the breeding side of things (for the decent meetings), it makes up part of the puzzle for me, but don't have conversion figures to back it up i.e. the winners I have because of this etc... I just do it for additional enjoyment and also at times it's useful in a debate, if those listening even take breeding into account.

I think someone on the forum (possibly archie, again, apologies if it wasn't) put me on to his thought process, that the dam supplies a certain part towards the foal and the sire another, I think it was split into potential physical ability and then the mental side of things. Whether I have this the right way around I am not 100% sure, but it's how I've been looking at breeding for the past 4/5 seasons now.

The dam and graddam I use for stamina purposes generally and also other progeny that have been produced. The sire I look for a high number of top level winners/ratings, flat or NH, and sometimes link the progeny to the trainer I am looking at the specific horse for. I like it when a trainer can mentally understand a horse from a certain sire, if that makes sense. I pay less attention to the grand sire (dams dad), as this doesn't appeal to me so much for what I'm trying to gauge.

I'm pretty lazy when it comes down to it, as I won't go out of my way to check every horse out in the market, only those that appeal to me on what I've seen on the track already, and certainly don't delve into the whole breeding stuff for a class 6 at Wolverhampton on a cold Tuesday evening. It usually only appeals to me for the bigger meetings, flat or NH.

[Istabraq]

There was a sire, whose name escapes me, who had sired hundreds of graded race winners but none of his progeny had won at Cheltenham highlighting a flaw with the bloodline and their ability to act at the track, whatever that reason might be.
This was eventually put right but there's no question a sire can produce, for example, multiple Betfair Hurdle and King George winners without producing a Champion Hurdle or Gold Cup winner, and is therefore worth noting...

[OverTheLast]

https://bloodstock.racing/

This will give you a heap of info but the RP cover pretty much everything you need.

There are others far more qualified than me to comment but personally I mostly ignore the Dam’s line, top stallions will cover 400 mares a year and most mares will only be covered a handful of times, rightly or wrongly I always consider the sire’s line more informative.

Cheers Istabraq, would you advise subscribing to RP to get the full benefits?

[Istabraq]

I don't subscribe OTL but many in here do so you should be able to get specific questions answered fairly easily.
There are plenty of other breeding sites out there, I've just done a little research myself as I've been trying to find out who the sire was I referred to above.

BHA is another good site for info

https://www.britishhorseracing.com/racing/horses/

[ComplyOrDie]

There was a sire, whose name escapes me, who had sired hundreds of graded race winners but none of his progeny had won at Cheltenham highlighting a flaw with the bloodline and their ability to act at the track, whatever that reason might be.
This was eventually put right but there's no question a sire can produce, for example, multiple Betfair Hurdle and King George winners without producing a Champion Hurdle or Gold Cup winner, and is therefore worth noting...

Yeah, when it comes to Cheltenham I usually look for sires who have done well at the festival. One that seems to do well is Beat Hollow, sire of Wicklow Brave, Minella Indo and Cinders And Ashes, although not had one for a few years now, I always double check his progeny.

[archie]

There was a sire, whose name escapes me, who had sired hundreds of graded race winners but none of his progeny had won at Cheltenham highlighting a flaw with the bloodline and their ability to act at the track, whatever that reason might be.
This was eventually put right but there's no question a sire can produce, for example, multiple Betfair Hurdle and King George winners without producing a Champion Hurdle or Gold Cup winner, and is therefore worth noting...

I suspect you're thinking of Scorpion, Isty. "They don't run up the hill."

This was finally broken by Might Bite but not exactly convincingly.

I tend to have generalised views about sires that I allow to be flexible for individual cases. It's usually based on an experience with an individual horse that I might look into further to see if there's a pattern. I'd say there are often trends but no hard and fast rules.

I do tend to go with the dam's record of producing winners and the general pattern as to favoured trip and soundness of the progeny.

[Quevega]

The sire was Montjeu I reckon. Scorpions dad ?

Then the Fly came to town.

[archie]

The sire was Montjeu I reckon. Scorpions dad ?

Then the Fly came to town.

And Noble Prince a couple of days later.

[Quevega]

And Noble Prince a couple of days later.

Yes
I enjoyed both of them very much.

[Spectre]

I don't use breeding as part of my regular form study but I do for the Festival and for a select number of specific races over the year. The main Sire influences over the different trips and course types are plain to see.

The Attheraces Cheltenham microsite gives a good update each year, and you'll see how much influence the main sires have over strike rate and distance:

https://cheltenham.attheraces.com/features/trendspotting/sires-and-specialists

[Outlaw]

I don't use breeding as part of my regular form study but I do for the Festival and for a select number of specific races over the year. The main Sire influences over the different trips and course types are plain to see.

The Attheraces Cheltenham microsite gives a good update each year, and you'll see how much influence the main sires have over strike rate and distance:

https://cheltenham.attheraces.com/fe...nd-specialists

There is a guy on Twitter who sells a book/Ebook geared around this just for the fez for anyone who likes to delve into that side of things.

[OverTheLast]

a kind of related question - do many on here use proform racing? Is it worth it?