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Do you actually believe one or both of these horses were severely affected by these races ?
Because if you or anyone else does , then racing is on an even slippery slope, if trainers stop racing their grade one horses against other good grade one horses in fear of ruining them, then what else do we have ?
I know it's possible and could have been a factor in their apparent decline, but I think it just bothers me when people mention this sort of thing.
"Maybe he should" ?
Agree Q.
Maybe for Shishkin it could be argued it tipped him over mentally, but the fact he always had that mental fragility in him is more to blame iMO. Was always said to have little quirks. The need for stepping up in trip to me can't be attributed to that one race, no way.
My view has always been that the Ascot race was overrated and that Altior declined before Ascot. The "left a mark" was an excuse for Nicky, perhaps to himself, that he was losing a champion.
I'd not be alone in thinking it surprising that Cyrname had earnt an RPR of 181 on the back of two resounding wins earlier in the season. As impressive as they were, I think these runs were at least 5lb overrated. This was a commonly held view before the race.
I also think that Altior was on the decline before the race. His RPRs pre Ascot reflect this being 180, 178, 173, 167. Then he posted 177 in defeat to Cyrname. He beat Sceau Royale before Ascot by 2 1/2 lengths (167), and after Ascot by 3 1/4 lengths (173). That doesn't scream of leaving a mark. That seems pretty consistent form either side of Ascot. I think by the time he raced Cyrname, he was a ~170 horse.
In fact, if you look at his final 8 runs, the trend seems quite obvious. He declines from a 180 horse to a 167 horse before Ascot. He then apparently runs to 177, before returning that 167 level. In fact, you could argue the 173 is overrated by 5lb given that he beat the same horse (Sceau Royal) by a similar distance as he did when scoring a 167 pre-Ascot.
This is a genuine request of folks . Would it be possible to keep the Hendo comments to the relevant threads. I visit certain threads less frequently because it’s past its sell by date now for me personally. Not just the comments themselves but also the ensuing debate that follows. Thats just a personal thing as some still seem to think there’s lots of mileage in it yet which of course is their prerogative but I wasn’t expecting it on the mares chase thread.
She ran Impervious to the closest she had been run too against other mares all season.
Impervious was touted not just for the Mares Chase again this season but also potentially the Ryanair.
IF Allegorie De Vassy can replicate last seasons performance it will take a good one to get close to her.
She looked the winner jumping the last and then buckled on the run in. Since that race she's been very in and out. More out than in . Stuffed twice by Instit who is just an average Mare and then crushed last time. In between those defeats she's managed to win twice in very low key races beating...........that average Mare Instit again. She's simply not good enough COD and has been hugely overrated on what she's showed on the racecourse. That's my point.
So you don’t want a top 2 Mile race to savour at Ascot and then one to look forward to at the festival!!
A bit naughty??
More like very selfish I would say.
I do Carnage. I'm all for fantastic match ups. It was tongue in cheek stuff and I wish I was more selfish sometimes!
She looked the winner jumping the last and then buckled on the run in. Since that race she's been very in and out. More out than in . Stuffed twice by Instit who is just an average Mare and then crushed last time. In between those defeats she's managed to win twice in very low key races beating...........that average Mare Instit again. She's simply not good enough COD and has been hugely overrated on what she's showed on the racecourse. That's my point.
Yeah, against a mare who ended the season rated 158 and recorded an RPR in the 160's, like, Dinoblue aside, who else is at Impervious' level in the market?
If, for whatever reason, Dinoblue comes out the race it becomes an incredibly weak renewal and the 151 rated Allegorie De Vassy becomes the best horse, on official ratings, in the race. I would argue the Instit form lines tbh. She held her by 2 1/4 lengths giving her 11lbs on her seasonal debut, Instit was actually weighted to win that race but Allegorie De Vassy won it easily enough. So, she run a stinker LTO against Riviere D'etel, but again, she was giving 8lbs away to her at a track she has barely run well at in the past.
Yeah, against a mare who ended the season rated 158 and recorded an RPR in the 160's, like, Dinoblue aside, who else is at Impervious' level in the market?
If, for whatever reason, Dinoblue comes out the race it becomes an incredibly weak renewal and the 151 rated Allegorie De Vassy becomes the best horse, on official ratings, in the race. I would argue the Instit form lines tbh. She held her by 2 1/4 lengths giving her 11lbs on her seasonal debut, Instit was actually weighted to win that race but Allegorie De Vassy won it easily enough. So, she run a stinker LTO against Riviere D'etel, but again, she was giving 8lbs away to her at a track she has barely run well at in the past.
Making excuses for her though COD. You shouldn't have to do that for really good horses. On what I've seen so far this season I'd have Hauturiere in front of her, Limerick Lace in front of her and Halka in front of her. Clearly Dinoblue would beat the lot if she stays 2 1/2 but ADV I just can't have at all. IMO Paul will get off her to ride Hauturiere and rightly so as she's the Mare on the up.
Making excuses for her though COD. You shouldn't have to do that for really good horses. On what I've seen so far this season I'd have Hauturiere in front of her, Limerick Lace in front of her and Halka in front of her. Clearly Dinoblue would beat the lot if she stays 2 1/2 but ADV I just can't have at all. IMO Paul will get off her to ride Hauturiere and rightly so as she's the Mare on the up.
Hauturiere finished 4th and lost to a 33/1 shot at Cork, let me guess, you have an excuse for that?
Horses are allowed excuses. Many times a horse is written off to come back and win.
I liked Hauturiere for the Mares Novice Hurdle back in the day but she disappointed. Obviously she's grown and matured since then but I don't have her ahead of Allegorie De Vassy, not even close, currently.
Hauturiere finished 4th and lost to a 33/1 shot at Cork, let me guess, you have an excuse for that?
Horses are allowed excuses. Many times a horse is written off to come back and win.
I liked Hauturiere for the Mares Novice Hurdle back in the day but she disappointed. Obviously she's grown and matured since then but I don't have her ahead of Allegorie De Vassy, not even close, currently.
Obvious excuse yes....it wasn't far enough (Willie said it as well) which she proved in no uncertain terms next time. ADV was desperate last time and nothing has come out. She looked really laboured in her previous two defeats by Instit as well and her jumping has deteriorated. She just looks to have regressed a fair bit. I'm not sure she'll even run at the festival and may well be kept in Ireland IMO .
Obvious excuse yes....it wasn't far enough (Willie said it as well) which she proved in no uncertain terms next time. ADV was desperate last time and nothing has come out. She looked really laboured in her previous two defeats by Instit as well and her jumping has deteriorated. She just looks to have regressed a fair bit. I'm not sure she'll even run at the festival and may well be kept in Ireland IMO .
There's a difference between regressing and being hugely overrated Lobos.
Obvious excuse yes....it wasn't far enough (Willie said it as well) which she proved in no uncertain terms next time. ADV was desperate last time and nothing has come out. She looked really laboured in her previous two defeats by Instit as well and her jumping has deteriorated. She just looks to have regressed a fair bit. I'm not sure she'll even run at the festival and may well be kept in Ireland IMO .
I accept the excuse it was too short, because, surprise, surprise, horses are allowed excuses for bad runs.
ADV's best run last season, IMO, was at the festival, I'm not sure why they would hold her back from running at it again, especially now her main rival from last season is out for the season.
She ran Impervious to the closest she had been run too against other mares all season.
Impervious was touted not just for the Mares Chase again this season but also potentially the Ryanair.
IF Allegorie De Vassy can replicate last seasons performance it will take a good one to get close to her.
It's a very big IF after her last run COD. That run was so disappointing. I was hoping to see a dominant run as thought she would be the stable's best mare after her run in last year's Mares Chase and my opinion on what I had read/heard. Hoping it was just an off day rather than an injury and really hoping Willie can have her back to her best for the Festival as I have a lot of interest in her which I can't get out of.
I discounted Dinoblue as was in the ADV camp but I now think it's a penalty kick for Dinoblue for the Mares Chase.
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