2024 Novice Hurdlers

[AaronLad]

Okay, he’s had a Bartlett winner, my post wasn’t about him never having a winner even then, he hardly lit the world on fire did he as a novice and was quite un fancied that day wasn’t he?

In more recent times his 2m horses etc seem to hit the ground running then fade away as the big guns come out. Whether Encanto Bruno stays at 2m (he is for his next target) and then up in distance afterwards we’ll see.

As I said I do like the horse, it’s just with my approach I’m not rushing to back him or any of Cromwells novices.

Nah you're right, he is well in the shadow of the top irish trainers when it comes to novices. i was just noting he had a novice hurdle winner once upon a time.
Id actually be interested to know how many he's tried with though, even MMM didn't compete in a novice at cheltenham

[TigerRolllllll]

It’s possible but I think he’s better and not a dodge either.

RPR of 142 last start is decent, but not yet festival winner level….,need to see a high 140s at least in Royal Bond for his 3rd run

Ambitious trainer who likely to surprise us again soon no doubt, but my sense is a good horse, but maybe not too grade 1 ?

[Craigy14]

Nah you're right, he is well in the shadow of the top irish trainers when it comes to novices. i was just noting he had a novice hurdle winner once upon a time.
Id actually be interested to know how many he's tried with though, even MMM didn't compete in a novice at cheltenham

Aye that’s what I mean, they start well, look good, then tail off when upped in class against the big trainers number 1’s etc.

It would be good for him to have a decent novice chance. It would be good for any other trainers in the UK and Ireland in all honesty other than the main 5/6 trainers year in year our.

I’m digressing and that’s a discussion not for this thread

[AaronLad]

Gavin cromwell has had 3 runners in novice hurdles at the cheltenham festival, in the last 10 years, I don't remember him being around longer than that so haven't gone back any further.
All 3 ran in the albert bartlett , 2020 was oscar academy who finished 12th, 2021 vanillier won and last season letsbeclearaboutit came 4th.
Gavin cromwell is certainly better known for having horses and improving them over time, than he is for a conveyor belt of top novices.
Clearly from his results when sending them to cheltenham for a novice hurdle, he knows what level is required i believe.

With encanto bruno, if he runs in the royal bond, i can see him being beaten. with the breeding he wouldn't lack for stamina and his last run at cheltenham he looked to have plenty left at the end of 2.5 miles and come march it'd be no surprise to see him in an albert bartlett.
On the other hand he could win and become cromwells first runner in the supreme or ballymore

[Runragged]

RPR of 142 last start is decent, but not yet festival winner level….,need to see a high 140s at least in Royal Bond for his 3rd run

Ambitious trainer who likely to surprise us again soon no doubt, but my sense is a good horse, but maybe not too grade 1 ?

I can see him being a Martin Pipe type. He actually really impressed me on his hurdling debut, one of the smoothest hurdlers I had seen for a first attempt. Reaffirmed that with his win last time out when jumping and travelling well. However, I am not on him for any race yet as not fully convinced he has the class to be a g1 winner. Get him beat a couple of times in g1's and rock up in a handicap. Cromwell had a very well backed Gabynako in the 2021 Martin Pipe where he went off at 9/2, though that plan never came to fruition... The way Encanto Bruno jumps and travels though would see him well suited to the MP in my mind. 16/1 any race with William Hill looks a very fair price and probably one worth covering before the Royal Bond.

[Rooster Booster]

I can see him being a Martin Pipe type. He actually really impressed me on his hurdling debut, one of the smoothest hurdlers I had seen for a first attempt. Reaffirmed that with his win last time out when jumping and travelling well. However, I am not on him for any race yet as not fully convinced he has the class to be a g1 winner. Get him beat a couple of times in g1's and rock up in a handicap. Cromwell had a very well backed Gabynako in the 2021 Martin Pipe where he went off at 9/2, though that plan never came to fruition... The way Encanto Bruno jumps and travels though would see him well suited to the MP in my mind. 16/1 any race with William Hill looks a very fair price and probably one worth covering before the Royal Bond.

Yes if he doesn’t turn out graded material he could well end up in a Cheltenham handicap. Did the same with Path Doroux last year. Pulled up in the royal bond though. Pulled up in the county too mind (12-1 sp) . I agree I wouldn’t put folks off 16s any race

[Craigy14]

One I’m keeping an eye on and I think it’s JackieMoon33 is keen on is Readin Tommy Wrong.

Entered up as we know at Punchestown and Cork, over 2m5f and 2m respectively. He looked to have a nice kick in his 2 bumper starts so depending how WPM’s novices line up he’s one for the Surpreme or Ballymore as opposed to the spud race. Tullyhill entered in the same 2 races who has always been talked as needing some sort of trip so I wonder if RTW will take on Ballyburn over 2m.

[Runragged]

One I’m keeping an eye on and I think it’s JackieMoon33 is keen on is Readin Tommy Wrong.

Entered up as we know at Punchestown and Cork, over 2m5f and 2m respectively. He looked to have a nice kick in his 2 bumper starts so depending how WPM’s novices line up he’s one for the Surpreme or Ballymore as opposed to the spud race. Tullyhill entered in the same 2 races who has always been talked as needing some sort of trip so I wonder if RTW will take on Ballyburn over 2m.

Bumper form doesn't amount to a great deal but like you said, shows a good turn of foot and still looks green. Be more concerned by trainer comments though that he is a "real chasing type and I'd imagine he'll be a better chaser than hurdler". Would certainly put me off the graded races but still more than one way to skin a cat. Another potential Martin Pipe horse?

[Craigy14]

Bumper form doesn't amount to a great deal but like you said, shows a good turn of foot and still looks green. Be more concerned by trainer comments though that he is a "real chasing type and I'd imagine he'll be a better chaser than hurdler". Would certainly put me off the graded races but still more than one way to skin a cat. Another potential Martin Pipe horse?

The comment doesn’t bother me too much as he could probably say that about most of his horses, even more so when they’ve come from a ptp background imo. It’s an easy throw away comment to make.

I doubt he’ll get 4 runs by march to qualify, one now, Xmas, jan/feb, wouldn’t be WPM’s style to run them for a handicap. Different if he had a couple hurdle starts but they tend to run on merit first.

[Runragged]

The comment doesn’t bother me too much as he could probably say that about most of his horses, even more so when they’ve come from a ptp background imo. It’s an easy throw away comment to make.

I doubt he’ll get 4 runs by march to qualify, one now, Xmas, jan/feb, wouldn’t be WPM’s style to run them for a handicap. Different if he had a couple hurdle starts but they tend to run on merit first.

Depends how you read between the lines. Would be a strange comment to make if you are treating the horse as a potential novice grade 1 hurdler in my mind. That's not to say Willie doesn't get it wrong or a horse produces more on the track than at home. Had a quick look at Mullins runners in the Martin Pipe for the last three years. All barring one had raced over hurdles previously in France. The exception was Adamantly Chosen but that was when the obligatory 3 runs was all that was needed, so like you say, unlikely he will cram four races in to qualify.

[JackieMoon33]

One I’m keeping an eye on and I think it’s JackieMoon33 is keen on is Readin Tommy Wrong.

Entered up as we know at Punchestown and Cork, over 2m5f and 2m respectively. He looked to have a nice kick in his 2 bumper starts so depending how WPM’s novices line up he’s one for the Surpreme or Ballymore as opposed to the spud race. Tullyhill entered in the same 2 races who has always been talked as needing some sort of trip so I wonder if RTW will take on Ballyburn over 2m.

Yeah I like him a lot although not backed him yet. I’m never too concerned with bumper form, especially the time of year he ran. Tullyhill I’ve backed for the AB and wouldn’t be interested in any other race for him.

https://www.fatjockey.com/forum/fat-jockey-horse-racing-forum/cheltenham-festival-2021/members-only-cheltenham-antepost-diaries/407794-jackie-moon-2024-possible-last-hurrah?p=423948#post423948

[JackieMoon33]

Bumper form doesn't amount to a great deal but like you said, shows a good turn of foot and still looks green. Be more concerned by trainer comments though that he is a "real chasing type and I'd imagine he'll be a better chaser than hurdler". Would certainly put me off the graded races but still more than one way to skin a cat. Another potential Martin Pipe horse?

Many festival novice hurdle winners have been ‘real chasing types’ but still been good enough to do the business over hurdles too.

[Kevloaf]

Many festival novice hurdle winners have been ‘real chasing types’ but still been good enough to do the business over hurdles too.

Would love to see the actual stats on that, would be really interesting!

Almost impossible, as you'd have to find trainer quotes and then qualify them as what was true and what was generic waffling

[Craigy14]

Depends how you read between the lines. Would be a strange comment to make if you are treating the horse as a potential novice grade 1 hurdler in my mind. That's not to say Willie doesn't get it wrong or a horse produces more on the track than at home. Had a quick look at Mullins runners in the Martin Pipe for the last three years. All barring one had raced over hurdles previously in France. The exception was Adamantly Chosen but that was when the obligatory 3 runs was all that was needed, so like you say, unlikely he will cram four races in to qualify.

Of the 3 that ran in it last year with the new rules of 4 hurdle runs required, Saylavee was his early season mare that didn’t quite live up to mares novice standard, Haxo was actually a novice from the year before so already qualified for the Martin pipe and hadn’t lived up to any graded form and Spanish Harlem had a hurdle run in France again didn’t live up to any graded form only required the 3 runs.

Anything prior to last year sort of skews things as it was only 3 runs hence how he was able to hide potential grades horses in the handicap but they were mostly given their chance to prove graded class first before being put into handicaps.

[JackieMoon33]

Would love to see the actual stats on that, would be really interesting!

Almost impossible, as you'd have to find trainer quotes and then qualify them as what was true and what was generic waffling

Impossible to track without someone really being insane and wanting to. Here’s one I do recall who was always talked of as a chaser and won the Supreme.


22Nov14 Gowran Park (16Hy, RPR 143)

He's a nice big horse and a chaser down the line. He could be anything.-Willie Mullins, trainer.