2023 Ryanair

[ComplyOrDie]

Cough king george cough

Eh? What's the King George got to do with it? You mean next season?

[FinalFurlong91]

Eh? What's the King George got to do with it? You mean next season?

Unless nicky has access to the TARDIS then yes

3 miles round kempton should suit him very nicely

Wonder if they'll try him over 3 miles at aintree

[ComplyOrDie]

Unless nicky has access to the TARDIS then yes

3 miles round kempton should suit him very nicely

Wonder if they'll try him over 3 miles at aintree

Haha yeah, I wouldn't put the King George beyond him tbh, nice flat track like Kempton, as you say, should suit him.

Maybe Gold Cup the following season all being well and he retains his ability/progresses for going out in trip, but right now I don't see the logic or argument for him going for a Gold Cup straight off the back of his first try over 2m5f under rules.

[Brooksie]

The same Don Cossack who won the G1 John Durkan over 2m4f, the G2 Kinloch Brae over 2m4f (twice), the G1 Melling Chase over 2m4f, and then and only then, was stepped up in trip to win a Gold Cup before retiring. Massive difference on what the pair have achieved so far.

Also, if you're just using the sire as his 'brother' then why not ask Bob Olinger what he thinks of fences, or 3m, for that matter?

Just a weird thing to say based on the sire, it's not as if they are full brothers.

I also think it's a weird thing to say then and only then they stepped Don Cossack up to 3 miles after winning over 2 and a half, isn't that what every horse does when moving up to 3 miles regardless of grade? Isn't that what Shishkin just did... Isn't Shishkin already a proven animal at grade 1 level?

Anyhow... I'm not saying he'll be going anywhere near a gold cup this season, but I think that is largely due to circumstance and also how open the Ryanair is without Allaho; if they didn't have the set back in January and were able to get the 2nd run into him before Cheltenham I very much think they'd have been aiming at a gold cup.

Oh and also for the record, I wasn't one of the many that thought he was gone at the game. Oddly enough I've always been against Shishkin and backing him for the gold cup and ryanair this season is the first time I've actually backed the horse in his career.

Apologies for the cringe self quoting

4 December 2022, 12:05 PM
Call me crazy but I've decided to get stuck into Shishkin to win the big one at 33/1. On the back of that tingle creek run you'd probably say I need my head checking but IMO I don't think he's gone, I just think he's slow and not enjoying jumping at pace. He's bred to get a trip same sire as Don Cossack, everything we've seen him do recently shows stamina and not speed. Personally, I think it's class that forced him down the 2 mile route in the first place. When you think of the gold cup horses gone by a lot performed vey well in the Arkle before going on to bigger and better things once upped in trip. Kauto would most probably have won an Arkle having not got injured, Sizing John 2nd, Kicking King 2nd, bloody War of Attrition 7th. What with Al Boum Photo now retired and Asterion probably going to be held back for Punchestown due to injury, Donnelly doesn't have anything noticeable for the gold cup, unless Gaillard Du Mesnil puts down a marker today and they switch up plans. I can see Nicky throwing Caution to the wind and sending him over 3 miles in a low key affair before maybe attending trials day the race won last year by Chantry.

[darlojim]

Wonder if they'll try him over 3 miles at aintree

Nicky has said thats the plan..

[ComplyOrDie]

I also think it's a weird thing to say then and only then they stepped Don Cossack up to 3 miles after winning over 2 and a half, isn't that what every horse does when moving up to 3 miles regardless of grade? Isn't that what Shishkin just did... Isn't Shishkin already a proven animal at grade 1 level?

Anyhow... I'm not saying he'll be going anywhere near a gold cup this season, but I think that is largely due to circumstance and also how open the Ryanair is without Allaho; if they didn't have the set back in January and were able to get the 2nd run into him before Cheltenham I very much think they'd have been aiming at a gold cup.

Oh and also for the record, I wasn't one of the many that thought he was gone at the game. Oddly enough I've always been against Shishkin and backing him for the gold cup and ryanair this season is the first time I've actually backed the horse in his career.

You used Don Cossack as an example because he stepped up in trip to win a Gold Cup and is by the same sire as Shishkin, but their profiles are vastly different.

Shishkin, whilst his breeding would suggest further, had plenty of boot to him, he was and probably still is, a pretty quick horse, Don Cossack wasn't.

It's not about the level they've run to, it's about what trip is best for the horse. Shishkin has been tried once over the intermediate trip and then every other person thinks he should be going for a Gold Cup (when I first wrote this it wasn't aimed at anyone on here specifically).

If you had used Sizing John as an example then I would of understood. He was one that stepped up markedly and won the Gold Cup. That's the horse for the argument, Sizing John. However, in readiness for him being used as an example I'd of argued that Shishkin was quick enough to hold his own over 2m, whereas Sizing John had to keep staring at Douvans rear end and wasn't quick enough.

[Quevega]

You used Don Cossack as an example because he stepped up in trip to win a Gold Cup and is by the same sire as Shishkin, but their profiles are vastly different.

Shishkin, whilst his breeding would suggest further, had plenty of boot to him, he was and probably still is, a pretty quick horse, Don Cossack wasn't.

It's not about the level they've run to, it's about what trip is best for the horse. Shishkin has been tried once over the intermediate trip and then every other person thinks he should be going for a Gold Cup (when I first wrote this it wasn't aimed at anyone on here specifically).

If you had used Sizing John as an example then I would of understood. He was one that stepped up markedly and won the Gold Cup. That's the horse for the argument, Sizing John. However, in readiness for him being used as an example I'd of argued that Shishkin was quick enough to hold his own over 2m, whereas Sizing John had to keep staring at Douvans rear end and wasn't quick enough.

I'd imagine that, betslips aside.
Most would prefer to see a classy horse like Shishkin in the Gold Cup and not the fucking Ryanair.

The trip is not really an issue with Shishkin, as when he's travelling like he did Saturday then he's a 175+ horse whatever the trip.
He was not the same horse that ran in the tingle creek and you could tell half way through the race.

He's 9 years old and has had issues, if the Gold cup cuts up a little (i.e GDC) then he really ought to chance his arm.
But they won't.

All the trip talk is moot. IMO

[robith]

I was happy to wait to see if Shishkin retained his enthusiasm, which he does.

He ticks a lot of boxes for the profile of the winner - makes all/tracks leaders, rated 161+, run at 2 festivals already, course winner.

There I was thinking Fury Road was the right bet. What was I thinking?

I doubt Shishkin is a great, but he looks a very likely winner of this race imo

[Brooksie]

You used Don Cossack as an example because he stepped up in trip to win a Gold Cup and is by the same sire as Shishkin, but their profiles are vastly different.

Shishkin, whilst his breeding would suggest further, had plenty of boot to him, he was and probably still is, a pretty quick horse, Don Cossack wasn't.

It's not about the level they've run to, it's about what trip is best for the horse. Shishkin has been tried once over the intermediate trip and then every other person thinks he should be going for a Gold Cup (when I first wrote this it wasn't aimed at anyone on here specifically).

If you had used Sizing John as an example then I would of understood. He was one that stepped up markedly and won the Gold Cup. That's the horse for the argument, Sizing John. However, in readiness for him being used as an example I'd of argued that Shishkin was quick enough to hold his own over 2m, whereas Sizing John had to keep staring at Douvans rear end and wasn't quick enough.

Yes you probably right, Sizing John fits the argument much better, in honesty my Don Cossack comment was a bit tongue in cheek. He's a near cert to run here and it's where I'd want him to go, it's just sensible. If he was mine the plan would be Ryanair, Aintree/Punchestown, then next season Betfair Chase, King George and one good go at a gold cup. Yep he'll be 10, but a pretty lightly raced 10 year old all the same.

[ComplyOrDie]

Most would prefer to see a classy horse like Shishkin in the Gold Cup and not the fucking Ryanair.

I guess I'm not 'most' then, as I'm not such a traditonalist, I prefer to see horses perform at their best trip (on form we have). Allaho has been sensational the last two seasons in the race, and I'm hoping Shishkin can do the same sort of thing. He's not my biggest winner in the race, but he is the class horse in the race, and I want to see a demolition job, just like Allaho.

The trip is not really an issue with Shishkin, as when he's travelling like he did Saturday then he's a 175+ horse whatever the trip.
He was not the same horse that ran in the tingle creek and you could tell half way through the race.

He's 9 years old and has had issues, if the Gold cup cuts up a little (i.e GDC) then he really ought to chance his arm.
But they won't.

Do I think Shishkin can get 3m+? Absolutely. However, I see zero logic in stepping him up to that just yet, based on what he's just done on his first try over the intermediate trip. I'm 99% sure that sense and logic will prevail and he'll end up in the right race for him this season. As I've said though, I expect him to go out in trip again next season, and FinalFurlong91 noted the King George as a target, which I agree with and will be backing him for too.

[ComplyOrDie]

Yes you probably right, Sizing John fits the argument much better, in honesty my Don Cossack comment was a bit tongue in cheek. He's a near cert to run here and it's where I'd want him to go, it's just sensible. If he was mine the plan would be Ryanair, Aintree/Punchestown, then next season Betfair Chase, King George and one good go at a gold cup. Yep he'll be 10, but a pretty lightly raced 10 year old all the same.

And that I do completely understand

[Kevloaf]

I'd imagine that, betslips aside.
Most would prefer to see a classy horse like Shishkin in the Gold Cup and not the fucking Ryanair.

The trip is not really an issue with Shishkin, as when he's travelling like he did Saturday then he's a 175+ horse whatever the trip.
He was not the same horse that ran in the tingle creek and you could tell half way through the race.

He's 9 years old and has had issues, if the Gold cup cuts up a little (i.e GDC) then he really ought to chance his arm.
But they won't.

All the trip talk is moot. IMO

Yeah that's definitely it.

I'd rather see Shishkin try and win a Gold Cup and fail than see him win a Ryanair.

I understand not everyone shares that view, but if he did win a Gold Cup, he's a superstar.

If he wins a Ryanair, he's just really good.

Same horse. All about the circumstances and prestige though.



If you take betting out of it.

[ComplyOrDie]

Shishkin given 179 by Timeform for those that follow these ratings.

Makes him the highest rated chaser, again, for them.

[Quevega]

Shishkin given 179 by Timeform for those that follow these ratings.

Makes him the highest rated chaser, again, for them.

Yep,
That'll be 3 years running the best horse in training on ratings is running in a ryanair against grade 2 horses.

They should change the name of the race to the Alberta's Run intermediate chase.

[doctorwu]

Shishkin given 179 by Timeform for those that follow these ratings.

Makes him the highest rated chaser, again, for them.

Staggering rating for that race.