General Chat

[Quevega]

Hurdles
2m champion
3m champion stayer


Chase
2 mile champion (queen mother)
3m 2f champion stayer (gold cup)


Hurdles
2m novice champion (supreme)
3m novice champion stayer (Bartlett)


Chase
2m novice champion (arkle)
3m novice champion stayer (BANC)


Juveniles
2m Juvenile Champion (triumph)
2m Juvenile handicap hurdle (0-135) (boodles)


Handicaps For Non Novices -
2m Handicap hurdle champion (county)
2m 4f Handicap hurdle champion (Coral cup)
3m Handicap hurdle champion (Pertemps)


2m Handicap chase champion (grand annual)
2m 4f Handicap chase (0-150) (plate)
2m 4f Handicap Chase champion (150+) (Ryanair)
3m Handicap chase champion (ultima)


Novice Handicaps -
2m 4f Novice handicap chase (0-145)
2m 4f Novice handicap hurdle (0-145)


Novelty Races -
3m 6f Veterans NH chase (amateur riders)
3m 2f Hunters chase (amateur riders)
3m 6f Cross country Handicap (0-150)
2m Champion Bumper
2m Mares Novice hurdle

We've touched on a lot of the changes we all might make and I've been on a similar page to Kevin Blake for a lot of these but the 24 races above would make the perfect four day festival for the modern age IMO.

The 2 divisions for the grade ones is all we need for the novices and older horses. It would encourage much more great match ups of the best horses each season.

The removal of the Mares hurdle and Mares chase from the festival itself and ideally moving them to the trials day meeting would encourage the best mares to come and have a go at the Championship races also.

The losing of the Turners and Gallaghers and converting them to Novice handicaps is an obvious boost for the 2 mile (supreme and arkle) and 3 mile divisions (Bartlett and BANC), and so would the removal of the NH chase for the BANC.

Strategic limiting of the novice handicaps to 0-145 would also make the ones rated higher have to run in one of the graded races.

The juvenile races need less tinkering but I'd limit the handicap to 0-135 so that the better ones fill up the field in the triumph again.

I think all these changes would lead to close to maximum fields or at least well into double figure fields for all the grade ones for sure.

If you banned novices from running in any of the other handicaps and kept them all then you'd struggle to fill them IMO, so the Kim Muir and martin pipe would have to go.

Just leaving the three handicaps for hurdlers and chasers at the three trips.

I think there would be sufficient horses on the chasers division to have 2 mid trip handicaps though and therefore the Ryanair would be ideal to be converted to a handicap for the classier horses rated over 150 and lets face it, no horse has won the plate off 150+ ever anyhow do that would become a 0-150.

The only new race would effectively be a replacement for the NH chase and be a veteran race for amateur riders instead, with a sort of legends feel to it. Must have been placed at the festival in their career or something like that.

Apart from the Gold cup distance I'd keep all the other races aside from the novelty ones to the specific trips of 2m - 2m 4f and 3m.

I also think each race should also have champion attached, even the handicaps.

i.e 2 mile champion handicap hurdler and so on.

The uniformity of most of the graded races and handicaps would help market the Festival for sure.

[DenmanSacre]

With the novice handicaps, you could have the rating lower than 145. Not that many novices are rated higher than 145 pre festival but the rest makes sense. Maybe make the plate 2m3 and the Ryanair 2m6. The Ryanair should also have an incentive where if you win certain races beforehand and win the Ryanair, you get a bonus. Also have a win and your in for the XC/Ultima and Grand National.

[Quevega]

With the novice handicaps, you could have the rating lower than 145. Not that many novices are rated higher than 145 pre festival but the rest makes sense. Maybe make the plate 2m3 and the Ryanair 2m6. The Ryanair should also have an incentive where if you win certain races beforehand and win the Ryanair, you get a bonus. Also have a win and your in for the XC/Ultima and Grand National.

Yeah - I'd be open to tinkering with the handicap weight bands. Although I think having it at 145 allows those trainers to run horses they think are suited to the mid trip.

But the system of races I'd vouch for is basically encouraging the faster horses to run against each other to see who's best and the stayers to see who stays the best. If you have a horse that's not Fast enough or stout enough then fuck off to handicapping.

This sport is looking for the Best horses in the FOUR Big races (Male or Female) - Champion hurdlers, Champion Chasers, Staying hurdlers and Gold cup winners - so the festival should be geared towards this. IMO.

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this sort of Festival would be much more attractive overall.
Less choice for the powerful trainers and funnelling the best vs the best as much as possible.
And 20 runner races for the most part.

[Exar Essay]

Lossiemouth isn't propping up any market, the percentages wouldn't back that up AND there is no way she's nailed on to skip the race. Respectfully I'd suggest you've not been following long enough if you think them dating she's going CH means she is. Only take 1 defeat and they'll change their tune.

Gaelic At 14s ... target not certain.

Win only punters won't care about Gerri or Fastorslow ... if you have 1 bet in the race. I could see me having them each way but that's just not something I'm worried about but we know we've got a dual champion and sexy novices


I honestly think people need to have a really, really hard think before placing a bet. More than ever.

I’m not a win only punter on selective targets so won’t claim to have skin in the game in that respect. But antepost markets have certainly shortened, and significantly so in the last 3 or 4 years, that’s plain. But is that a response to on the day markets changing significantly too? It’s a different (if related) point but bookies now need, or perhaps feel the need, to cover the likelihood of there being an odds on shot in a reasonable number of races.

I also feel, and it’s only a feeling, that some prices aren’t as restrictive this year as they were last year.

I agree Lossiemouth isn’t nailed on for the Mares but neither did I say she was. Far from it. I do think, and said, she’s odds against to end up there, whereby 5/2 takes up an unreasonable proportion of the market. I’d only have to have followed racing for 4 weeks to know that even certainties aren’t certain when it comes to race targets. I did also note that the Mares Hurdle market has shortened since initial offerings.

[Liammet]

Was no trap with Envoi. Ran a superb race and would have been a very good winner again without Protektorat falling into the race late. Put all the others to bed very easily. Energumene is fairly lightly raced so not your usual milage for an 11 yo.

The stat of a ten year old winning the Ryanair was against Envoi
was only done once before
Out of 27 races at this years festival only one ten year old won and no horse above 10 won

[robith]

I also think removing the middle distance races from Cheltenham makes them more special at Aintree. The relentless focus on Cheltenham as everything is eating the sport and when the festival starts to under deliver (like now) there's no strength in the foundations and the whole edifice comes down

[Saxon Warrior]

Alot of hate for the NH Chase, but this race has existed for 160+ years and Browns Advisory 75+ years so I don't buy the view that the presence of both dilutes anything.
20 years ago both races had 20+ runners, for me it can only be the inception of the Turners that has diluted other races.
The current festival is a result of expansion, it's not getting any smaller and has every chance of getting bigger, so I think we need to live with what it looks like and accept the challenges it brings to us as punters...

There’s no Novice Handicap Hurdles or Novice Handicap Chases, which make the Cheltenham Handicaps full of them, some skipping graded races to go for these Hcaps instead.

That needs to change for next season, in my view.

The Martin Pipe as it stands is just ripe for conversion immediately to a 0-145 Novice Hcap Hurdle over the 2M4F trip.

Its masquerading as one anyway, it’s so simple to just convert it to one…..

….and at the same time tweak the Coral Cup and use it as being for Handicap Hurdlers only, and ban Novices, as the Pipe is there for them.

No-one should be upset with that.

At a stroke it stops 20+ double handicap hurdle entries across the Coral Cup and the Pipe, as horses would then enter in one or the other.

The Turners should convert to a 0-145 Novice Handicap Chase, and stop the nonsense of having 4 Graded Novice Chases for horses to enter, as well as multiple handicap opportunities.

Keep the history of the BANC and Arkle intact, and let the Turners go to Aintree, 4 weeks later.

Aintree needs its Grade 1 programme clipping too, so have one Grade 1 Novice Chase over 2M4F “The Turners” and make it the centrepiece Novice Chase at the meeting.

The NHC needs reimagining, yet again, this happens every few years now.

Knocking it down to 3M6F and making jockeys have to be more experienced to ride in it was a good idea.

But let’s face it, as a Grade 2 Novice Chase, it’s just a poor imitation of a longer BANC.
It’s messing up the race planning and marketing of the BANC as a Championship event, and running plans across both those races and also the Turners is a mess too.

The NHC either needs downgrading again, or moved away from being a BANC substitute for Novice Chasers.

Maybe from the Handicap Early Entry stage onwards, horses with Festival entries should only be allowed a maximum of two Festival entries from those 3 weeks out, across Graded and Hcap races.

Finally the Supreme, Gallagher, Bartlett has some of the same issues as the Novice Chases, with multiple entries, lack of depth at 2M and 2M5F and connections dodging opponents.

Maybe a two entry max rule would help, and not need changes to the 3 Grade 1 Novice Hurdles - but if it doesn’t we could go to a 2M Supreme and a 2M5F or 2M6F Gallagher, and move the Bartlett out, in some way (Aintree?)

After those moves we should have clearer paths to knowing whose running where, earlier, and cater for the dwindling population of Grade 1 horses by funnelling them to fewer targets, to ensure better filling of fields for races.

Aintree needs reimagining on its number and type of Grade 1s too, or you just shift the field size, competitive issues over to them instead.

It can’t be beyond the wit of the BHA and the Jockey Club to be able to sort this out, and rid itself of too many odds on favs in small field races, on prestige race days.

The 1000 Guineas, 2000 Guineas, Oaks and Derby don’t have 5 and 6 runner fields.

NH racing really needs to sort its Grade 1 race programme out, and its use of Handicaps and Novice races at their Aintree and Cheltenham Festivals, and get more competitive racing back, and more levy from betting into bigger field races.

[Istabraq]

Plenty of well considered changes from Saxon Warrior and Quevega and whilst all have validity there are too many, the BHA aren't capable of seeing the issues that have been created from the money grab of the extended 4 day festival, the 5 day extension will be kicking around again soon enough too so expect further dilution.

Novices in handicaps has been a gripe of mine for years, I think addressing this will resolve many of the field size issues in a single swoop and I have small hope this might be considered.
Personally I'd throw the Mares programme to a finals days somewhere, Sandown could easily extend their finale to 2 days (move the flat to Thursday) and have a Fri/Sat NH end of season mini festival.

But radical change ain't happening however broken we believe things currently are...

[Eggs]

Ballyburn 8/15 is ridiculous.

….6/4 in Sky a/r market.

[Quevega]

I also think removing the middle distance races from Cheltenham makes them more special at Aintree. The relentless focus on Cheltenham as everything is eating the sport and when the festival starts to under deliver (like now) there's no strength in the foundations and the whole edifice comes down

Absolutely aintree could cater for grade ones at all the mid trips. This would entice winners of the 2m and 3m races to race against each other also.

i Wouldn’t be against the novice races at the festival being 2m and 2m 6f either.

[Garrison Savannah]

Absolutely aintree could cater for grade ones at all the mid trips. This would entice winners of the 2m and 3m races to race against each other also.

i Wouldn’t be against the novice races at the festival being 2m and 2m 6f either.

The National meeting already has a:

grade 1 novices chase at midtrip
grade 1 open hurdle at midtrip
grade 1 novices hurdle at midtrip
grade 1 open chase at midtrip

It would not be difficult to amend the Cheltenham/Aintree cards to suit your idea. I think it would solve some of the current issues and improve both meetings.

[Irish Rugby]

The stat of a ten year old winning the Ryanair was against Envoi
was only done once before
Out of 27 races at this years festival only one ten year old won and no horse above 10 won

Probably helped we had no Cross Country also this year.

2023 - Sire de Berlais, Seddon and Delta Work

2022 - Global Citizen, Coole Cody, Chambard and Billaway

All were 10 or above.

So, for the last 3 Festivals, out of 83 races, we only 8 had winners who were aged 10 or more. I’d say going back leaving out races like the Cross Country and the Hunter Chasers, that would be an even stronger stat?

[Quevega]

The National meeting already has a:

grade 1 novices chase at midtrip
grade 1 open hurdle at midtrip
grade 1 novices hurdle at midtrip
grade 1 open chase at midtrip

It would not be difficult to amend the Cheltenham/Aintree cards to suit your idea. I think it would solve some of the current issues and improve both meetings.

Yep, a bonus system would help Aintree a little also.

[Kautostar]

Most handicaps didn’t even fill this year and that’s including all the novices that ran in them. I think the problem is a lack of quality horses and prize money.
People complaining about getting rid of the turners/NHC but apart from grey dawning/corbetts cross who both would have been competitive in the brown advisory I don’t see many others that would have made the Arkle/banc more interesting. Just because it’s a big field doesn’t necessarily make the race any better! People seem obsessed with big fields even though half of them would have no chance of winning or even placing. Oh it’s got 20 runners but 12 of them I would beat carrying Lobos around on my back. Would all the dross from the NHC (corbetts aside) have made the banc a better race by being tailed off? I think not

I would leave the turners, Ryanair, Gallagher’s etc alone. They’re fine some years are good and some aren’t that’s just dependent on the horses at that time. I’ve also stated before I don’t mind the xc that has now turned into a veterans chase for ex gold cup horses. I was quite looking forward it tbh but maybe that’s just me.

The changes I would make would be to scrap 1 of the ultima/kim muir and combine the two banning novices from entering those. Bring back the novice hcap chase 0-145 and make the Martin pipe a novice only hcap hurdle whilst banning novices from the coral cup.

[Redbridge]

I had to google the clothing brand in the first picture, as i thought Kev had instigated a brand.

https://www.racingpost.com/news/festivals/cheltenham-festival/lots-of-people-are-doing-it-and-you-can-understand-why-race-fans-plump-for-costa-del-cheltenham-over-the-festival-aBYzG7k3t6dR/