General Chat

[Kautostar]

A real problem for the owners HF. Who on earth would you put them with over here now that NH seems to be losing the plot. The rest are bang average.

I think Dan Skelton could prove to be top class if given more graded ammunition.

[Istabraq]

IThe idea we should expect different or excuse certain behaviours from those in rural areas is bollocks,.
.

I haven’t suggested that and I’m not sure anyone has, what I said was there is a very different understanding of agricultural matters between people from rural areas and people in urban areas.
This is very different from people consider is accepted behaviour...

[Can't Catch Me]

It looks inevitable that Gordon will get a ban.

His best course of action right now would be to give up his training licence with immediate effect so that someone else can take over the running of his yard.

My understanding - based on a piece in The Times today - is that this would mean horses in the yard would be able to run at the Festival under the new licence holder's name.

The consequences would be:

1. Owners would not have to move their horses from the yard to get a run at the Festival.

2. Gordon giving up his licence would take the heat off the Irish racing authorities allowing their investigation to run its course - and not reach a hasty conclusion while emotions are running so high.

3. If the investigation inquiry was to take place in two or three months time everyone will be in a much calmer frame of mind - increasing the possibility of Gordon getting a shorter ban than he would now. In my view he could be looking at years rather than months if the issue was resolved any time soon.

4. Gordon might still have a business to come back to after serving his ban - if somebody else has been running the training operation in his absence.

To my mind, this would be Gordon's best chance of salvaging something from a very sad state of affairs on so many levels.

Couldnt agree more and said that almost word for word to my mate earlier!

[PresentingPercy]

No, I’m not trying to make this into a uk vs ireland thing, at all. I just think they’re different cultures, people in the UK are probably just a more sensitive bunch, as by and large a lot less exposed to the nature of agriculture and keeping livestock/working animals than people in Ireland. (That’s not me saying that everybody in Ireland abuses animals or anything, just probably less inclined to see them as pets)

A very good point. I also saw a very good synopsis in this thread about how some people defer to comedy to make the best of a bad situation, this is also a very Irish trait. Apologies in advance if this gets a little dark but it needs to be highlighted.

For full disclosure, I was born and raised in rural Ireland with a strong farming background, with horses and all sorts of farm animals. Death is part of the occupation, you become desensitized to it, you almost have to if you wish to remain in the trade. Do not get me wrong, what Elliot and others have done is incredibly stupid and it does no positive to the game of racing. But in the grand scheme of things, it should not be a hanging offense! When you are the carer of 300+ horses, its impossible to have emotional attachment to them all. Sitting on a dead animal while grinning at the camera is idiotic and is not a good look, but for some context, what do people think happens to the horse as part of next steps in disposing the body? There are no animal grave yards. That horse would have been picked up by its hind legs and loaded into the back of a truck to the local knackery. There the carcass would be skinned and disemboweled before being chopped up and on tomorrows menu at the local hunt kennels or Dublin Zoo. Having someone sitting on the horse is disrespectful however the disposal of the horse isn't?

I have friends who teach kids in urban areas and the disconnect between animals and human is amazing if they are anything to go by. Some were shocked to learn where milk on their shop shelves actually comes from for example, never mind when the conversation is raised of where their meat is coming from.

Unfortunately racing will pander to people who are so far removed from the realities of animal ownership and livelihoods that revolve around animals. They will recline on their leather chairs after their lamb dinners, happy in the knowledge that something they were told is cruel is being knocked down a peg or two.

It's a momentary lack of judgement that shows a distinct lack of class - Elliott should be punished accordingly. Owners moving their horses away is the worst punishment he will face and rightly so

[Istabraq]

PresentingPercy
Excellent post Sir

[Redbridge]

A very good point. I also saw a very good synopsis in this thread about how some people defer to comedy to make the best of a bad situation, this is also a very Irish trait. Apologies in advance if this gets a little dark but it needs to be highlighted.

For full disclosure, I was born and raised in rural Ireland with a strong farming background, with horses and all sorts of farm animals. Death is part of the occupation, you become desensitized to it, you almost have to if you wish to remain in the trade. Do not get me wrong, what Elliot and others have done is incredibly stupid and it does no positive to the game of racing. But in the grand scheme of things, it should not be a hanging offense! When you are the carer of 300+ horses, its impossible to have emotional attachment to them all. Sitting on a dead animal while grinning at the camera is idiotic and is not a good look, but for some context, what do people think happens to the horse as part of next steps in disposing the body? There are no animal grave yards. That horse would have been picked up by its hind legs and loaded into the back of a truck to the local knackery. There the carcass would be skinned and disemboweled before being chopped up and on tomorrows menu at the local hunt kennels or Dublin Zoo. Having someone sitting on the horse is disrespectful however the disposal of the horse isn't?

I have friends who teach kids in urban areas and the disconnect between animals and human is amazing if they are anything to go by. Some were shocked to learn where milk on their shop shelves actually comes from for example, never mind when the conversation is raised of where their meat is coming from.

Unfortunately racing will pander to people who are so far removed from the realities of animal ownership and livelihoods that revolve around animals. They will recline on their leather chairs after their lamb dinners, happy in the knowledge that something they were told is cruel is being knocked down a peg or two.

It's a momentary lack of judgement that shows a distinct lack of class - Elliott should be punished accordingly. Owners moving their horses away is the worst punishment he will face and rightly so

Well put and salient to a townie that has spent a great deal of time in the countryside, but disagree re measures that virtually bankrupt a person, courts are not extreme and look to an afterlife after punishment.

[charlie]

PresentingPercy
Excellent post Sir

I second that.

[ToniC]

PresentingPercy Very well put there. I do welding work for a few of the local farmers from time to time, and I think everybody should have an appreciation of the realities of what goes on in the background to afford them the convenience of being able to just get a pack of clean, fresh meat from a supermarket.

[Carnage at Taunton]

Davy explained the circumstances and it was accepted he acted out of safety, not cruelty, regardless of how bad it looked, hence only the 4 day ban. The horse was playing up and he gave it a knock to the back of the head to try and get his mind back on the task at hand, which is in the horses interest from a safety point of view. Lots of people will tell you corrective behaviour is a basic part of horsemanship (as other Jockey's like RJ did at the time), and when you consider the physiological implications of horses falling at 35mph, a tap to the back of the head does absolutely nothing - so basically, have a go at Gordon all you want because he deserves it, but please don't drag Davy into this debate with flippant comments like that cause they're just unnecessary. He was punished, a line was drawn, we move on.

Sorry for not having the full facts, i presumed the reason he got a ban was because they deemed it wrong for him to thump a horse.

[charlie]

Sorry for not having the full facts, i presumed the reason he got a ban was because they deemed it wrong for him to thump a horse.

Lets just move on. Gordon and James deserve discussion here, not Davy.

[Craigy14]

Have seen some stuff on Twitter in support of racing which I think is a great idea to whoever started it!

#fortheloveofhorses

Everyone within racing posting using this, will help a great deal at this time imo.

[Carnage at Taunton]

Lets just move on. Gordon and James deserve discussion here, not Davy.

Absolutely, i was merely apologising and giving my reasoning to you. Moved on.

[ToniC]

Statement from the IRTA seems pretty well balanced IMO

[doctorwu]

A very good point. I also saw a very good synopsis in this thread about how some people defer to comedy to make the best of a bad situation, this is also a very Irish trait. Apologies in advance if this gets a little dark but it needs to be highlighted.

For full disclosure, I was born and raised in rural Ireland with a strong farming background, with horses and all sorts of farm animals. Death is part of the occupation, you become desensitized to it, you almost have to if you wish to remain in the trade. Do not get me wrong, what Elliot and others have done is incredibly stupid and it does no positive to the game of racing. But in the grand scheme of things, it should not be a hanging offense! When you are the carer of 300+ horses, its impossible to have emotional attachment to them all. Sitting on a dead animal while grinning at the camera is idiotic and is not a good look, but for some context, what do people think happens to the horse as part of next steps in disposing the body? There are no animal grave yards. That horse would have been picked up by its hind legs and loaded into the back of a truck to the local knackery. There the carcass would be skinned and disemboweled before being chopped up and on tomorrows menu at the local hunt kennels or Dublin Zoo. Having someone sitting on the horse is disrespectful however the disposal of the horse isn't?

I have friends who teach kids in urban areas and the disconnect between animals and human is amazing if they are anything to go by. Some were shocked to learn where milk on their shop shelves actually comes from for example, never mind when the conversation is raised of where their meat is coming from.

Unfortunately racing will pander to people who are so far removed from the realities of animal ownership and livelihoods that revolve around animals. They will recline on their leather chairs after their lamb dinners, happy in the knowledge that something they were told is cruel is being knocked down a peg or two.

It's a momentary lack of judgement that shows a distinct lack of class - Elliott should be punished accordingly. Owners moving their horses away is the worst punishment he will face and rightly so

Super stuff PP

[Supermaster]

On a different topic. Well as a newbie I didn't want to get involved in a flaming row but I can't help thinking that the festival tipping competition encourages picking favourites in all the races since it awards points for 1234 as well as "bonus" points for a the SP for a winner.

To simplify consider a win only competition with 10 points for a win plus the SP. And consider two horses in a race. One is the even money favourite and one is at 9/1. Run the race 10 times (or 10 different races with the same pair of odds). Betting odds mean something. They come from the collective wisdom of punters plus input from the bookies and stable whispers etc leading to market moves.

So on average you would expect the evens favourite to win 5 of those 10 races: total score = 60 (or 55 if you discount the stake return)
On average you expect the 9/1 shot to win just once: total score = 20 (or 19 if you discount the stake return)

On the other hand if you just score based on what you would receive back from the bookie for a ?1 level stake, then in each case you score 10 points.

For the competition as described choosing each favourite would have yielded 144.7 points in 2020 if my adding is correct. I divided the returns for two joint favourites by two.
How would that have done last year?

P.S. I didn't put this in the tipping thread so as not to disturb the flow of actual selections.