General Chat

[Anay Turge]

But can you not see how that would piss Irish folk off, given it’s not even their area of jurisdiction, and the Irish authorities enquiry is still ongoing? It’s an absolutely gross overstep, IMO, and has put a lot of people’s backs up.

Definitely can see why it would annoy the Irish. The BHA have superseded their Irish counterparts by just “suspending” Gordon. By the time the main investigation is completed, most of the owners could have left Gordon’s stables.

[Rooster Booster]

Mick channon, Richard O’Brien have, Davy Russel retweeted loads of supporting stuff as have a few other Irish figures from the industry. People are rightly shocked by the image but the people bawling their eyes out & calling for him to never train again seem to be from one side of the Irish Sea, predominantly

Are you suggesting that these same people would be a lot more tolerant and understanding if it were a British trainer?

[ToniC]

Are you suggesting that these same people would be a lot more tolerant and understanding if it were a British trainer?

No, I’m not trying to make this into a uk vs ireland thing, at all. I just think they’re different cultures, people in the UK are probably just a more sensitive bunch, as by and large a lot less exposed to the nature of agriculture and keeping livestock/working animals than people in Ireland. (That’s not me saying that everybody in Ireland abuses animals or anything, just probably less inclined to see them as pets)

[Rooster Booster]

No, I’m not trying to make this into a uk vs ireland thing, at all. I just think they’re different cultures, people in the UK are probably just a more sensitive bunch, as by and large a lot less exposed to the nature of agriculture and keeping livestock/working animals than people in Ireland. (That’s not me saying that everybody in Ireland abuses animals or anything, just probably less inclined to see them as pets)

Ok then there probably could have been a better phrase than ‘bawling their eyes out ‘ as this could come across as a little judgemental . When my 15 year old daughter calls me and wants to understand how I can claim to love animals and also love this sport I feel like bawling my eyes out but at least I know now that it’s because I am from England.

[Istabraq]

I just think they’re different cultures, people in the UK are probably just a more sensitive bunch, as by and large a lot less exposed to the nature of agriculture and keeping livestock/working animals than people in Ireland. (That’s not me saying that everybody in Ireland abuses animals or anything, just probably less inclined to see them as pets)

I think your point about culture differential and the lack of exposure some people/groups have to the nature of agriculture as you describe is extremely valid.
I was fortunate enough to spend time in Ireland some years ago through work and there is a clear understanding, and even appreciation, by Irish generally that horses are work animals and there is less affiliation/sentiment.
You get this in the UK in rural areas but the vast majority of people in the UK live in towns and cities and rarely, if ever, have contact with anything remotely agricultural, and this is where the views differ.
There's nothing wrong with the views of any of these groups, they are just brought up differently and live different lives, and let's be honest if there was a little more understanding of the values and how different groups behave/live there might not be so many issues in the world...

[nortonscoin200]

It looks inevitable that Gordon will get a ban.

His best course of action right now would be to give up his training licence with immediate effect so that someone else can take over the running of his yard.

My understanding - based on a piece in The Times today - is that this would mean horses in the yard would be able to run at the Festival under the new licence holder's name.

The consequences would be:

1. Owners would not have to move their horses from the yard to get a run at the Festival.

2. Gordon giving up his licence would take the heat off the Irish racing authorities allowing their investigation to run its course - and not reach a hasty conclusion while emotions are running so high.

3. If the investigation inquiry was to take place in two or three months time everyone will be in a much calmer frame of mind - increasing the possibility of Gordon getting a shorter ban than he would now. In my view he could be looking at years rather than months if the issue was resolved any time soon.

4. Gordon might still have a business to come back to after serving his ban - if somebody else has been running the training operation in his absence.

To my mind, this would be Gordon's best chance of salvaging something from a very sad state of affairs on so many levels.

[Liverpoolchamp]

So do we all still think Kilcruit and Sir Gerhard will still clash in the bumper now there both with Willie? I hope so!

[TCH29]

No, I’m not trying to make this into a uk vs ireland thing, at all. I just think they’re different cultures, people in the UK are probably just a more sensitive bunch, as by and large a lot less exposed to the nature of agriculture and keeping livestock/working animals than people in Ireland. (That’s not me saying that everybody in Ireland abuses animals or anything, just probably less inclined to see them as pets)

Or more aware of how you ensure the long term future of the sport.

The BHA haven’t reacted how they have just to put the boot into the IHRB (although I’m sure they enjoyed that); they have realised the PR disaster this is and the potential impact to finances (which pay the prize money and therefore salaries of everyone in the game on both sides of the pond). They have reacted quickly to mitigate risk and get on top of the sh*tstorm, which is absolutely the right approach if you care about the game and stable hands. No one can afford for there to be a huge drop in sponsorship, betting revenues of tv audiences. Whether you like it or not this is a marketing and PR issue, which will in turn impact finances, which in turn affects the entire viability of the industry. It is not about an independent, balanced, “thorough” investigation into Elliot. If you’re focusing on that you are missing the bigger picture. The IHRB are dragging their heels - meet on Friday...wtf?! - and the BHA are right to act more swiftly and force their hand. This is bigger than Elliot. Besides, with everything that’s come out, he’s clearly not that nice a fella so I struggle to have much sympathy for him. In the meantime protection of the sport is the focus.

[charlie]

So do we all still think Kilcruit and Sir Gerhard will still clash in the bumper now there both with Willie? I hope so!

Yes, absolutely. I imagine the owners will have said to Willie and HDB that they would like them to follow through with the plans Gordon had for them.

Be more bad news for the sport if the new trainers started moving them around, and they will know that

[Exar Essay]

So do we all still think Kilcruit and Sir Gerhard will still clash in the bumper now there both with Willie? I hope so!

Of course. Sir G wouldn't have been moved there by CPS if he wasn't guaranteed a run. Willie won't mind which wins - it's still another notch in the win column.

[doctorwu]

If Gordon’s hearing is the 5th if he avoids a ban then there is every chance he will still have runners at the fez

the BHA suspension is only pending the IRHB decision so if he isn’t banned in Ireland there’s every chance he isn’t banned here


I wouldn’t mind seeing some top quality horses coming over here but who do you trust to get you spring festival wins?
- Henderson hates running horse
- Nicholls doesn’t care about the spring festivals just the trainers championship
- I get the feeling the rest are more bothered about planning some genius handicap plot

A real problem for the owners HF. Who on earth would you put them with over here now that NH seems to be losing the plot. The rest are bang average.

[Atlantic Viking]

I think your point about culture differential and the lack of exposure some people/groups have to the nature of agriculture as you describe is extremely valid.
I was fortunate enough to spend time in Ireland some years ago through work and there is a clear understanding, and even appreciation, by Irish generally that horses are work animals and there is less affiliation/sentiment.
You get this in the UK in rural areas but the vast majority of people in the UK live in towns and cities and rarely, if ever, have contact with anything remotely agricultural, and this is where the views differ.
There's nothing wrong with the views of any of these groups, they are just brought up differently and live different lives, and let's be honest if there was a little more understanding of the values and how different groups behave/live there might not be so many issues in the world...

I live in rural England, an area with a large amount of racing yards in the vicinity and farms in general, obviously. Can I imagine the images/videos we've seen this weekend happening here? I've never seen it, but yeah, if i'm honest. And I wouldn't think for a second it occurred because the people in them were animal abusers or such like. I've made my feelings known at length earlier in the thread. But it doesn't excuse it, a lack of class and respect is the same whether you live in England, Ireland or wherever else. The idea we should expect different or excuse certain behaviours from those in rural areas is bollocks, because most would never act in such a manner and it does them a huge disservice to pretend it's normal practice, cultural, accepted, whatever.
A horse is ultimately stock and a commodity, I get that, but it's also about much more than that as this is a sport, the horses have names, the public are close to many of them, we're encouraged to have an affinity with them, they have owners who spend small fortunes on their upkeep, people who work to care for them for pennies because they really do care. It can't simply be passed off as agriculture and boys being boys, it has to mean more than that, if nothing else people need to realise how much the future hinges on PR, or else the game is dead and we can have no complaints because we brought it all on ourselves.

Like i've said though, context and what not is important. I feel like i'm in a battle with myself on this. I can think of 2 episodes of Top Gear for example where they had dead cows on a roof of a car. We elected a prime minister who stuck his corey in a dead pigs head. We are a laughably inconsistent society.

[robith]

Whilst I don't agree with the way the BHA went about it (my wife is Irish and didn't care until the BHA got involved), they had to. The IHRB is properly archaic - how long did the Byrnes case take? And we still don't know who did it? The BHA could not allow Elliott to run at Cheltenham, it would be a disaster, and they couldn't have the Irish authorities taking 6 months to name a panel to look into it.

Was it harsh? Yes. Did it properly stuff Elliott? Absolutely. Do I like it? Not one jot. Could they do anything else? Only if they wanted this hanging over the build up to Cheltenham with the Four Miler on day one? They've been dicks, but really, they had no choice

[TCH29]

It looks inevitable that Gordon will get a ban.

His best course of action right now would be to give up his training licence with immediate effect so that someone else can take over the running of his yard.

Very wise post, NC. He’d be doing his staff and the IHRB a favour which would likely help him out enormously down the line.

[charlie]

So he’s got support from a jockey that was openly cruel to a horse, okey doke. Thanks for confirming.

Davy explained the circumstances and it was accepted he acted out of safety, not cruelty, regardless of how bad it looked, hence only the 4 day ban. The horse was playing up and he gave it a knock to the back of the head to try and get his mind back on the task at hand, which is in the horses interest from a safety point of view. Lots of people will tell you corrective behaviour is a basic part of horsemanship (as other Jockey's like RJ did at the time), and when you consider the physiological implications of horses falling at 35mph, a tap to the back of the head does absolutely nothing - so basically, have a go at Gordon all you want because he deserves it, but please don't drag Davy into this debate with flippant comments like that cause they're just unnecessary. He was punished, a line was drawn, we move on.