General Chat

[Muswell]

People laugh at funerals do they not care?

[Quevega]

The horse is dead. The chatter about horse welfare is over-reactionary nonsense.

I get what you're saying, but you don't throw respect and care out of the window just cos something is no longer alive.
And it throws into serious doubt how the individual treats things that are alive.

If I saw a teenager kicking a dead cat along the road, I wouldn't just turn a blind eye cos it's already dead.
I'd hit the little fucker on the back of the head with a large Tablespoon.
Then make him dig a hole to bury it in. (with the same tablespoon)

[Istabraq]

Archie, the injured party is anyone who works or cares about racing. He’s brought the sport into disrepute.

I think some perspective is needed here, yes we're all disappointed by what we've seen but I really don't see this as a 'trophy' photo celebrating the death of a racehorse, it is without doubt poor judgement and also without doubt incredible stupidity that he allowed someone, and you would think this has to be a staff member, to take the photo and retain it.
Every sport is brought into disripute multiple times a season, sometimes multiple times a day, countless drug cheats in athletics, numerous drug/drink/driving and assault cases in NFL, match fixing in tennis, spot fixing in cricket as well as bottle tops, dirt and sandpaper to affect the ball, the list is endless, bribery to win hosting rights to tournaments, and I've not even mentioned the hundreds of cheats in football to dive their way around a field and do their level best to mislead refs and get opponents sent off.
It was horrible to see but, and I'm in no way defending Elliott, there are a number of brutal/primitive processes adopted when managing large/heavy animals in yards, farms and zoos that might surprise a few people, click on the 'take photo' button at the right time and you can easily make a judgement that isn't right.
Why Elliott chose to sit on a dead horse is beyond me, it's tactless and highly stupid of course but unlikely to be career ending...

[Quevega]

People laugh at funerals do they not care?

I agree with this.
Him smiling does not matter, it just looks bad.
It would be completely natural and actually professional for him to have gained a hard nosed practical reaction to the death of horses.
If he was broken into pieces every time then he would be in the wrong job.

When I put my dog down the other night, I didn't expect the VET to be in floods of tears, only myself.
Which is why I bottled it and let the Mrs go on her own.
I did offer, but she was braver than me.
A good wife indeed.

[Garrison Savannah]

I get what you're saying, but you don't throw respect and care out of the window just cos something is no longer alive.
And it throws into serious doubt how the individual treats things that are alive.

If I saw a teenager kicking a dead cat along the road, I wouldn't just turn a blind eye cos it's already dead.
I'd hit the little fucker on the back of the head with a large Tablespoon.
Then make him dig a hole to bury it in.

I agree with all that.

He’s been disrespectful, he’s been distasteful, he’s acted in a way not expected of him. I’m sure he can be found to be in breach of some code, and I’m in full agreement he should face punishment. Heavy punishment too.

However, neither Elliott or your fictitious teenager, have undertaken any action that brings animal welfare into question. Without any further evidence, neither Elliott or the teenager need take any punishment or even any suggestion of endangering the welfare of an animal.

[PresentingPercy]

A momentary lack of judgement that shows a distinct lack of class. That is how I would summarise the photo

[Istabraq]

I'm sure if you stood for long enough in a mortuary or a funeral directors with a camera you'd see some things you wish you hadn't.
Though if you were to visit these places with a camera the chances are you already have issues in life....

[Quevega]

I agree with all that.

He’s been disrespectful, he’s been distasteful, he’s acted in a way not expected of him. I’m sure he can be found to be in breach of some code, and I’m in full agreement he should face punishment. Heavy punishment too.

However, neither Elliott or your fictitious teenager, have undertaken any action that brings animal welfare into question. Without any further evidence, neither Elliott or the teenager need take any punishment or even any suggestion of endangering the welfare of an animal.

Yep.
It depends on where welfare ends though, or how some would define it. which was my point.
In it's broadest sense the people mentioning it would be right.
But I kind of agree with you in that in it's true sense this is nit a welfare issue.

Although there is some fucking mental health welfare issues for sure. But that's all the humans involved, and not the poor horse.

[Quevega]

A momentary lack of judgement that shows a distinct lack of class. That is how I would summarise the photo

And entirely in character.

[FinalFurlong91]

Id be of the opinion that the Charles byrnes case was much more damaging for racing.

A horse was given potentially harmful levels of drugs, which couldve harmed the horse or even the jockey, then the horse was laid for serious money.

Yet people were much less vocal about it because it wasn't a big trainer which is wrong.

Gordon has been foolish and disrespectful to the horse and its owners. People are acting as though he killed the horse himself and sat on it like a big game hunter.

A big donation to horse welfare charities and a public apology is as far as I personally think it should go.

Hopefully it is resolved quickly and we dont get a repeat of Byrnes winning a race at the DRF just before being banned.

[nortonscoin200]

I think it would be in everyone's best interests if Gordon agreed to:

1. Step aside from running the yard with immediate effect until the investigation is concluded.

2. Agreed not to attend any race meetings from now until a verdict has been reached.

That would at least take some of the heat out of what is a very emotive issue.

Gordon should voluntarily agree to hand over the running of the yard to his number two or A N Other - and not be directly involved with the horses, maybe not even be on the premises.

That would allow horses from the stable to run at Cheltenham and it would prevent owners, punters and indeed the betting industry from becoming innocent victims in the fallout from this incident.

Feelings are running high on this but I agree with Kev's post that while it is perfectly proper for us to voice our views we should treat each other with respect - even if we don't agree with some of the views being put forward.

It seems to me that:

1. Gordon's behaviour in sitting smiling astride a dead horse on the gallops was extremely poor.

2. He must be punished with a ban after a properly conducted inquiry where he is allowed to put forward his side of the story.

3. Whoever posted the photo has behaved in a very malicious way and deserves no credit. But in my view that does not mitigate the case against Gordon. He has admitted it happened and given a pretty lame excuse for the reason it happened.

4. This issue does not involve cruelty to any horses in his care.

5. But Gordon's behaviour does show a callous lack of respect for a dead animal in his care.

6. This has been a massive PR own goal for the sport at a perilous time (covid) and a fortnight before the biggest meeting of the year, Rest assured, this issue will overshadow the Festival until the curtain comes down on Gold Cup day.

7. Please don't waste your time blaming the media. Yes, they will get some things wrong and yes some of the reports will sensationalise the issue. But this is a big story. We on this forum have talked about little else for the past couple of days. But this story obviously plays way beyond racing fans.

8. Racing's reputation has been damaged in the short term. And when you are in the eye of the storm it is tempting to fear you will never come out the other side. But I don't think that's the case here. Racing will recover from this more quickly than people are perhaps thinking today. Whether Gordon's career will ever again reach the same lofty heights is another question it is probably too soon to answer. But his reputation will be permanently stained I have no doubt.

[Garrison Savannah]

Id be of the opinion that the Charles byrnes case was much more damaging for racing.

A horse was given potentially harmful levels of drugs, which couldve harmed the horse or even the jockey, then the horse was laid for serious money.

Not sure I necessarily agree with all of the rest of your post FF but this section is spot on.

The Charles Byrne case most definitely contains very worrying and potentially dangerous animal welfare issues. It’s far worse than anything Elliott has done on the basis of this photo (albeit there may be other things we’re not aware of). Far far worse.

[Quevega]

I think it would be in everyone's best interests if Gordon agreed to:

1. Step aside from running the yard with immediate effect until the investigation is concluded.

2. Agreed not to attend any race meetings from now until a verdict has been reached.

That would at least take some of the heat out of what is a very emotive issue.

Gordon should voluntarily agree to hand over the running of the yard to his number two or A N Other - and not be directly involved with the horses, maybe not even be on the premises.

That would allow horses from the stable to run at Cheltenham and it would prevent owners, punters and indeed the betting industry from becoming innocent victims in the fallout from this incident.

Feelings are running high on this but I agree with Kev's post that while it is perfectly proper for us to voice our views we should treat each other with respect - even if we don't agree with some of the views being put forward.

It seems to me that:

1. Gordon's behaviour in sitting smiling astride a dead horse on the gallops was extremely poor.

2. He must be punished with a ban after a properly conducted inquiry where he is allowed to put forward his side of the story.

3. Whoever posted the photo has behaved in a very malicious way and deserves no credit. But in my view that does not mitigate the case against Gordon. He has admitted it happened and given a pretty lame excuse for the reason it happened.

4. This issue does not involve cruelty to any horses in his care.

5. But Gordon's behaviour does show a callous lack of respect for a dead animal in his care.

6. This has been a massive PR own goal for the sport at a perilous time (covid) and a fortnight before the biggest meeting of the year, Rest assured, this issue will overshadow the Festival until the curtain comes down on Gold Cup day.

7. Please don't waste your time blaming the media. Yes, they will get some things wrong and yes some of the reports will sensationalise the issue. But this is a big story. We on this forum have talked about little else for the past couple of days. But this story obviously plays way beyond racing fans.

8. Racing's reputation has been damaged in the short term. And when you are in the eye of the storm it is tempting to fear you will never come out the other side. But I don't think that's the case here. Racing will recover from this more quickly than people are perhaps thinking today. Whether Gordon's career will ever again reach the same lofty heights is another question it is probably too soon to answer. But his reputation will be permanently stained I have no doubt.

Objection your honour - Points 3 and 4 are speculation on your part.

[ryanh97]

I agree with all that.

He’s been disrespectful, he’s been distasteful, he’s acted in a way not expected of him. I’m sure he can be found to be in breach of some code, and I’m in full agreement he should face punishment. Heavy punishment too.

However, neither Elliott or your fictitious teenager, have undertaken any action that brings animal welfare into question. Without any further evidence, neither Elliott or the teenager need take any punishment or even any suggestion of endangering the welfare of an animal.

While it doesn't absolutely pose a welfare issue, I completely understand the view that if he shows this level of contempt to a horse that has died in his care, are there any issues to horses alive in his care.

[FinalFurlong91]

Not sure I necessarily agree with all of the rest of your post FF but this section is spot on.

The Charles Byrne case most definitely contains very worrying and potentially dangerous animal welfare issues. It’s far worse than anything Elliott has done on the basis of this photo (albeit there may be other things we’re not aware of). Far far worse.

Its not even close imo

And the implications of it have been brushed over

There certainly wasn't as much of an outcry