General Chat

[Quevega]

Have you any articles to read about such things? Genuinely interested is all.

No mate.
I've tried to read Walsh's piece in the times, but can't be arsed to sign up.
Most of what I've said is my opinion, using my common sense.

It's probably even more sensitive for this sport due to the betting industry behind it.
But if the trainers are not using science to help improve the horses performance then they're stupid.

Espoir D'allen's win and Binnocular's win were both reminiscent of Ben Johnson to me.
But there are many more examples of vastly improved performances, it's just a shame that some will have been achieved by cheating.

Problem with me is I also think the following people are all cheats as well.......

Mo Farah - almost every single athlete his former coach worked with has been found guilty of doping offences except Mo - rapid improver once he met this coach.

Kelly Holmes - growing a goatee currently, and also linked to a coaching camp where every other athlete got caught, and she also improved rapidly at an age when she shouldn't have.

Linford Christie - eyes now completely yellow.

Usain Bolt - virtually every Jamaican athlete of his era has been found guilty of doping - for a country like Jamaica to suddenyl produce so many amazingly quick athletes is just a certainty that it was state sponsored.

Bradley Wiggins &
Chris Froome. - cos all cyclists cheat.

Sally Gunnell - now shaves regularly alongside Fatima Whitbread who is now a man who eats cockroaches through his nose.

[charlie]

Usain Bolt - virtually every Jamaican athlete of his era has been found guilty of doping - for a country like Jamaica to suddenyl produce so many amazingly quick athletes is just a certainty that it was state sponsored.

How would you explain his exceptional speed at a very young age then? He was setting records at 12 years old - I would hazard a guess that performance enhancing drug use in 12 year olds is non-existent, and would have even been exceptionally rare when he was 15 winning the Junior World Championships.

He also never failed a single drug test, and it's quite common for countries that focus on one sport to dominate said sport. That doesn't mean it's part of a conspiracy.

There are quite a few scientific studies into how he is physically able to generate such power and speed, where scientists literally measure how and why he is able to run faster than other people.

I buy into some of the others, but think you are off the mark on this one

[Outlaw]

No mate.
I've tried to read Walsh's piece in the times, but can't be arsed to sign up.
Most of what I've said is my opinion, using my common sense.

It's probably even more sensitive for this sport due to the betting industry behind it.
But if the trainers are not using science to help improve the horses performance then they're stupid.

Espoir D'allen's win and Binnocular's win were both reminiscent of Ben Johnson to me.
But there are many more examples of vastly improved performances, it's just a shame that some will have been achieved by cheating.

Problem with me is I also think the following people are all cheats as well.......

Mo Farah - almost every single athlete his former coach worked with has been found guilty of doping offences except Mo - rapid improver once he met this coach.

Kelly Holmes - growing a goatee currently, and also linked to a coaching camp where every other athlete got caught, and she also improved rapidly at an age when she shouldn't have.

Linford Christie - eyes now completely yellow.

Usain Bolt - virtually every Jamaican athlete of his era has been found guilty of doping - for a country like Jamaica to suddenyl produce so many amazingly quick athletes is just a certainty that it was state sponsored.

Bradley Wiggins &
Chris Froome. - cos all cyclists cheat.

Sally Gunnell - now shaves regularly alongside Fatima Whitbread who is now a man who eats cockroaches through his nose.

Fair enough, some of the athletes you mention are major red flags. I know the marmite that is Tony Ansell has called out Sir Mo at every opportunity and the things he has referenced on him makes sense. The cycling reaks and that could blow up more so down the line.

The Bolt one i don't want to believe but when you look at the fastest 40 times ever run in history he is the only one on the list to not have been guilty of cheating, it does paint a poor picture, as does most of athletics tbh. Might as well have the juiced up version and watch every record tumble for a couple of years like the USSR days.

[Outlaw]

How would you explain his exceptional speed at a very young age then? He was setting records at 12 years old - I would hazard a guess that performance enhancing drug use in 12 year olds is non-existent, and would have even been exceptionally rare when he was 15 winning the Junior World Championships.

He also never failed a single drug test, and it's quite common for countries that focus on one sport to dominate said sport. That doesn't mean it's part of a conspiracy.

There are quite a few scientific studies into how he is physically able to generate such power and speed, where scientists literally measure how and why he is able to run faster than other people.

I buy into some of the others, but think you are off the mark on this one

I think the cynicism comes with his huge jump in PBs from 2007-8 Charlie, i don't want him to be a cheat either but when you look at the 100m record over the years it paints a grim picture of what people will do to be the "fastest man who ever lived" I am not saying he is a cheat but you can see why some would question it.

[Quevega]

How would you explain his exceptional speed at a very young age then? He was setting records at 12 years old - I would hazard a guess that performance enhancing drug use in 12 year olds is non-existent, and would have even been exceptionally rare when he was 15 winning the Junior World Championships.

He also never failed a single drug test, and it's quite common for countries that focus on one sport to dominate said sport. That doesn't mean it's part of a conspiracy.

There are quite a few scientific studies into how he is physically able to generate such power and speed, where scientists literally measure how and why he is able to run faster than other people.

I buy into some of the others, but think you are off the mark on this one

Neither of us can be sure.
But the odds are stacked way in my favour.

The 12yr old argument is nonsensical (when you're coming from my viewpoint)
There is nothing that would convince me that he hasn't cheated, especially that he was fast when he was 12 !

For him to be clean, means he has consistently beat others who have been cheating.
Virtually every other world record holder in sprinting has been subsequently proven to have cheated at some point.
It just doesn't stack up, and never will do to me.

Lance never failed a drugs test either and the people running the sport helped cover up what he was up to. Because he was so BIG for the Sport.
And there was plenty of pro - scientific stuff done on why he was different and so good.

It's a Romantic argument vs Cynical Common sense IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a massive hater of conspiracy theories myself, especially the bizarre ones.
But the doping in Sport suspicion's have so much going for them.
History is littered with them.

[Jorvik]

Bradley Wiggins &
Chris Froome. - cos all cyclists cheat..

I'm a big cycling fan and watch it on the assumption that it's still going on to some degree, but absolutely nowhere near the levels of old and the EPO era in particular. When it does cross the boundaries it's much easier to spot now, especially in the mountains. There's a recent-ish Italian winner of a TDF that i'd put everything I own on failing to stand the test of time if they look closer.
I think the main doping Froome and Wiggins have benefited from is of the financial variety, I reckon I could have won races in some of those Sky teams, people who would be leaders and World champions anywhere else doing the donkey work! They completely changed cycling on that front and in the focus they gave to winning the TDF.
Doping of the medical variety has gone from brazen and at times outright dangerous, to subtle and if i'm honest, at a level I can live with as a fan, it's much, much safer now if nothing else. It's now less a case of filling your body with as much as it can take of whatever the wonder drug of the day is, more a case of taking absolute liberties with the legal boundaries of stuff you can be prescribed and testing every loophole that ever existed. It's still bloody cheating, but you'll sadly never eradicate the dark side of finding an edge in sport and i'm much more comfortable now that primarily i'm watching the best cyclists rather than the experiment of the best doctor.

While we're here, there's a certain British female marathon runner who's times don't make a huge amount of sense all things considered. And whoever does Mo Farahs PR should be given a knighthood. Our performance for the London Olympics across a range of sports was a little bit too good (cycling included). We wouldn't be the first host country and certainly wouldn't be the last, but still...

Don't even get me started on the blind eye turned to the physiques of rugby players and boxers! The latter appears to have a policy of being ok with it all so long as you don't take the piss too close to the fight.

Anyway... been out a few years now but Icarus is a very good watch on this sort of thing for those who haven't seen it.

[charlie]

I think the cynicism comes with his huge jump in PBs from 2007-8 Charlie, i don't want him to be a cheat either but when you look at the 100m record over the years it paints a grim picture of what people will do to be the "fastest man who ever lived" I am not saying he is a cheat but you can see why some would question it.

Given we peak physically between 20 and 25, why is him continuing a record of PB's from his teens into his 20's suspicious?

He's the only man to ever run the 100 meter faster than 9.78 seconds and never serve any type of drug-related suspension, and he must have been tested hundreds of times.

I think with UB you either accept him as the greatest sprinter of all time (like me), or the greatest cheat of all time (like you), no in-between

[Quevega]

I'm a big cycling fan and watch it on the assumption that it's still going on to some degree, but absolutely nowhere near the levels of old and the EPO era in particular. When it does cross the boundaries it's much easier to spot now, especially in the mountains. There's a recent-ish Italian winner of a TDF that i'd put everything I own on failing to stand the test of time if they look closer.
I think the main doping Froome and Wiggins have benefited from is of the financial variety, I reckon I could have won races in some of those Sky teams, people who would be leaders and World champions anywhere else doing the donkey work! They completely changed cycling on that front and in the focus they gave to winning the TDF.
Doping of the medical variety has gone from brazen and at times outright dangerous, to subtle and if i'm honest, at a level I can live with as a fan, it's much, much safer now if nothing else. It's now less a case of filling your body with as much as it can take of whatever the wonder drug of the day is, more a case of taking absolute liberties with the legal boundaries of stuff you can be prescribed and testing every loophole that ever existed. It's still bloody cheating, but you'll sadly never eradicate the dark side of finding an edge in sport and i'm much more comfortable now that primarily i'm watching the best cyclists rather than the experiment of the best doctor.

While we're here, there's a certain British female marathon runner who's times don't make a huge amount of sense all things considered. And whoever does Mo Farahs PR should be given a knighthood. Our performance for the London Olympics across a range of sports was a little bit too good (cycling included). We wouldn't be the first host country and certainly wouldn't be the last, but still...

Don't even get me started on the blind eye turned to the physiques of rugby players and boxers! The latter appears to have a policy of being ok with it all so long as you don't take the piss too close to the fight.

Anyway... been out a few years now but Icarus is a very good watch on this sort of thing for those who haven't seen it.

I used to love watching the Tour.
Back when Indurain and Le Monde and Roche were racing.

It's a really tricky thing to get your head around enjoying these sports that have been tarnished so much like cycling and athletics.
I still can enjoy it, but I also know I'm watching people who have likely been up to no good, or breaking legal boundaries.

[Outlaw]

Given we peak physically between 20 and 25, why is him continuing a record of PB's from his teens into his 20's suspicious?

He's the only man to ever run the 100 meter faster than 9.78 seconds and never serve any type of drug-related suspension, and he must have been tested hundreds of times.

I think with UB you either accept him as the greatest sprinter of all time (like me), or the greatest cheat of all time (like you), no in-between

I never said he was a cheat but said you can see why plenty would be cynical! two very different things.


Nearly every sprinter from Jamaica that was running sub 10s in that era has been doping. Of course it's natural to improve Pbs year on yeah until mid 20s but name another sprinter who wiped off 0.25-3s in one year once in their 20s?

Is he the fastest man who ever lived yes, is he the greatest sprinter of all time yes,will he get questioned because of others from his island actions yes.

* Q basically replied before I had seen but I'll leave the reply up*

[Quevega]

Given we peak physically between 20 and 25, why is him continuing a record of PB's from his teens into his 20's suspicious?

He's the only man to ever run the 100 meter faster than 9.78 seconds and never serve any type of drug-related suspension, and he must have been tested hundreds of times.

I think with UB you either accept him as the greatest sprinter of all time (like me), or the greatest cheat of all time (like you), no in-between

This is more damning to me than an endorsement.

But the last sentence is absolutely true.
Bit like the existence Father Christmas or God (from my viewpoint)

[charlie]

Neither of us can be sure.
But the odds are stacked way in my favour.

The 12yr old argument is nonsensical (when you're coming from my viewpoint)
There is nothing that would convince me that he hasn't cheated, especially that he was fast when he was 12 !

For him to be clean, means he has consistently beat others who have been cheating.
Virtually every other world record holder in sprinting has been subsequently proven to have cheated at some point.
It just doesn't stack up, and never will do to me.

Lance never failed a drugs test either and the people running the sport helped cover up what he was up to. Because he was so BIG for the Sport.
And there was plenty of pro - scientific stuff done on why he was different and so good.

It's a Romantic argument vs Cynical Common sense IMO.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a massive hater of conspiracy theories myself, especially the bizarre ones.
But the doping in Sport suspicion's have so much going for them.
History is littered with them.

There is no romanticism when calculating speed. Speed is the product of stride length times stride frequency. Usain Bolt needed 41 strides to cover 100 meters, whilst other elite runners needed 43 or 45.

[Jorvik]

It's quite amusing the almost universal worship that goes the way of the likes of Merckx, Indurain etc... but the hate that finds Armstrong. Ultimately, his big crime in the sport wasn't necessarily the doping, it was turning being a monumentally arrogant arsehole into an art form. If he was a nice bloke (and maybe stopped at 5 TDF wins), I reckon they'd all still be there on his palmares.

[Jorvik]

Given we peak physically between 20 and 25, why is him continuing a record of PB's from his teens into his 20's suspicious?

He's the only man to ever run the 100 meter faster than 9.78 seconds and never serve any type of drug-related suspension, and he must have been tested hundreds of times.

I think with UB you either accept him as the greatest sprinter of all time (like me), or the greatest cheat of all time (like you), no in-between

I don't really have an opinion on Bolt because I don't care about atheltics, but there's huge amounts of PR and politics involved in testing and the amount of effort put into it. Much easier to put the leg work into properly testing Russian athletes than it is others. As I sad earlier, our recent Olympic performances, particularly London, were 'exceptional' and a whole host of other superlatives you'll often find alongside the (more often than not proven) question marks... I don't know if Bolt was at it (I tend to assume they all are and that you're still watching the best anyway), but it certainly isn't in the interests of a sport that struggles for attention and from an already damaged reputation to risk losing one of the biggest and best poster boys it will ever have.

[Quevega]

There is no romanticism when calculating speed. Speed is the product of stride length times stride frequency. Usain Bolt needed 41 strides to cover 100 meters, whilst other elite runners needed 43 or 45.

Peter Crouch would have beat him then !

You clearly love him and believe his story.
That's cool.
And I'd like to think you're right.
But there's no persuading me on this subject.

[The King Pimm]

No mate.
I've tried to read Walsh's piece in the times, but can't be arsed to sign up.
Most of what I've said is my opinion, using my common sense.

It's probably even more sensitive for this sport due to the betting industry behind it.
But if the trainers are not using science to help improve the horses performance then they're stupid.

Espoir D'allen's win and Binnocular's win were both reminiscent of Ben Johnson to me.
But there are many more examples of vastly improved performances, it's just a shame that some will have been achieved by cheating.

Problem with me is I also think the following people are all cheats as well.......

Mo Farah - almost every single athlete his former coach worked with has been found guilty of doping offences except Mo - rapid improver once he met this coach.

Kelly Holmes - growing a goatee currently, and also linked to a coaching camp where every other athlete got caught, and she also improved rapidly at an age when she shouldn't have.

Linford Christie - eyes now completely yellow.

Usain Bolt - virtually every Jamaican athlete of his era has been found guilty of doping - for a country like Jamaica to suddenyl produce so many amazingly quick athletes is just a certainty that it was state sponsored.

Bradley Wiggins &
Chris Froome. - cos all cyclists cheat.

Sally Gunnell - now shaves regularly alongside Fatima Whitbread who is now a man who eats cockroaches through his nose.

Brilliant!!