General Chat

[Priceiskey]

I think the whole envoi allen reaction by a lot of people is a bit over the top. Firstly the hype surrounding him pre festival as the second coming was too much and now it seems the overreaction has gone the other way where nobody now thinks he’s a gold cup horse and some think Ryanair or champion chase should be his target all on the back of one fall after four fences! People talk about him like he’s turned into a crazy version of goshen because he got wound up before the marsh.
I know the fact that hdb already has two gold cup horses for next season muddies the water a bit but let’s just see how he progresses at Punchestown and early next season first. I’d still like to see him campaigned as a gold cup horse and if he doesn’t stay then drop him back in trip.

Totally agree. All the best horses can fall. I would campaign him towards a Gold Cup. As well as APT ran he wasn’t good enough to win and Cheveley will want a Gold Cup winner more than anything.

[Istabraq]

Yeah, one fall doesn’t demand and entire re-think on a horses career, Dessie, Kauto and a host of others all hit the deck at some point.
Envoi Allen was bought as a potential Gold Cup horse and I doubt what happened last Thursday has changed anything....

[robith]

I think the whole envoi allen reaction by a lot of people is a bit over the top. Firstly the hype surrounding him pre festival as the second coming was too much and now it seems the overreaction has gone the other way where nobody now thinks he’s a gold cup horse and some think Ryanair or champion chase should be his target all on the back of one fall after four fences! People talk about him like he’s turned into a crazy version of goshen because he got wound up before the marsh.
I know the fact that hdb already has two gold cup horses for next season muddies the water a bit but let’s just see how he progresses at Punchestown and early next season first. I’d still like to see him campaigned as a gold cup horse and if he doesn’t stay then drop him back in trip.

I'd agree, it's hardly like he was gasping for breath as Chantry House galloped him into the ground, he tripped on the 3rd fence

[FinalFurlong91]

He may have been bought to win a gold cup but that doesn't mean he will

Hes never looked a stayer to me always had loads of speed

Id need to see him stay 3 miles before thinking he's a gold cup contender personally

[Spectre]

Envoi Allen will go to the Gold Cup if Cheveley follow their normal MO of buying horses to win the blue ribband event in future. They've always seen him as a future Gold Cup prospect, and surely they will go that way and find out.

Talk from Gerraghty and Keenan of a drop back to two miles to face Shishkin who would be the toughest task of all is surely idle chat.

Allaho is the Ryanair Champion and surely tries to defent his crown, so why would they want both horses there.

It's a case of overthnking something that's obvious. They surely will set out with a Gold Cup campaign in mind, and only switch if things go wrong.

[HoldenTheReins]

Envoi Allen will go to the Gold Cup if Cheveley follow their normal MO of buying horses to win the blue ribband event in future. They've always seen him as a future Gold Cup prospect, and surely they will go that way and find out.

Talk from Gerraghty and Keenan of a drop back to two miles to face Shishkin who would be the toughest task of all is surely idle chat.

Allaho is the Ryanair Champion and surely tries to defent his crown, so why would they want both horses there.

It's a case of overthnking something that's obvious. They surely will set out with a Gold Cup campaign in mind, and only switch if things go wrong.

HDB will have some ammo for the gold cup. Minella Indo, A Plus Tard and Envoi Allen.

[Garrison Savannah]

APT was bang there this and it’d be very difficult to rule him out next year based on that run, and all other known form including previous festival form.

Yet the trends suggest that is exactly what we all should probably do...other than Native River, no first time winner has done so having previously been beaten in the race...

I know I know...

[Kautostar]

APT was bang there this and it’d be very difficult to rule him out next year based on that run, and all other known form including previous festival form.

Yet the trends suggest that is exactly what we all should probably do...other than Native River, no first time winner has done so having previously been beaten in the race...

I know I know...

The same with minella indo, the gold cup takes so much winning horses are rarely the same again. I know ABP managed to win two but he was campaigned sparingly. It will be interesting to see what mark that gold cup has left on the first two next season!

[FinalFurlong91]

He may have been bought to be a gold cup horse and that's a nice line and everything

But from what we've seen on the track has he looked like 3m2f round a stiff track is going to be his bag?

I think its sensible to at least entertain the idea that he won't end up there

Hopefully we see him over 3 miles at punchestown which will be our first clue

Good jumps horses by his sire

Twinlight 2m
James du berlais 2-2m4f
Elixir d'ainay 2-2m4f
Quel destin 2-2m4f

Then there is Pacha du polder who was a stayer

The hope for him bring a stayer is very much from the dam sire who is a strong stamina influence saint des saints (sire of burrows saint, djakadam etc etc).

Just dont think its as cut and dry that he will stay and that doesn't make him an antepost proposition for a gold cup right now for me especially at 8/1 same price as the reigning champ.

As I said fingers crossed we get the dream clash of envoi and monkfish over 3 miles at punchestown

The winner of that clash would be a fairly short priced fav for the Gold Cup.

[Quevega]

HDB will have some ammo for the gold cup. Minella Indo, A Plus Tard and Envoi Allen.

This was what tempted me into backing Envoi Allen for the Ryanair.
Henry will almost certainly want to have another crack with those 2 horses.

And Willie is already trying to get the 2021 Ryanair winner into another championship race, when he's just put his stamp on the race. Which shows a little bit of where Willie's priorities are.

Where Envoi eventually ends up will depend on how well he fares in open company, but what prep races will he run in when Henry will want to race his other 2 also ??
And then you'll have the Mullins horses also, especially Monkfish.

It's entirely possible that Envoi is not as dominant in open company and this may lead to a demotion to the lesser of the staying grade ones at the festival. Or as others have suggested, a go in the 2 mile race.

Lots of shit to happen but the 16-1 Ryanair looked reasonable value to me.
Something tells me that if he were to line up in a Gold Cup then I would probably favour backing 2 or 3 other horses than him. Whereas, aside from the freakish performance of Allaho, I'd have him as a likely favourite for the Ryanair.

I also think of all the leading Irish stayers that Envoi is most likely to run in the UK over Christmas, now he's with Henry. The King George looks an obvious fit.
Whereas it doesn't for the others.

[Kautostar]

Where was this conversation re envoi allen not being a gold cup horse prior to his fall? If he hadn’t fallen and won the marsh he’d be somewhere between 7/2-5/1 for the gold cup now. He’s had one fall and now the assumption is he doesn’t stay! He might not but it’s madness the over reaction a fall has caused!

[HoldenTheReins]

Where was this conversation re envoi allen not being a gold cup horse prior to his fall? If he hadn’t fallen and won the marsh he’d be somewhere between 7/2-5/1 for the gold cup now. He’s had one fall and now the assumption is he doesn’t stay! He might not but it’s madness the over reaction a fall has caused!

Agreed but worried about how keen he was before his fall. Won't win a gold cup like that.

[FinalFurlong91]

Where was this conversation re envoi allen not being a gold cup horse prior to his fall? If he hadn’t fallen and won the marsh he’d be somewhere between 7/2-5/1 for the gold cup now. He’s had one fall and now the assumption is he doesn’t stay! He might not but it’s madness the over reaction a fall has caused!

Not sure I follow?

Why would people think him falling means he won't stay?

He couldve won on the snaff by 10 lengths and be 2/1 fav for the gold cup and he'd still have stamina doubts because he's unproven over anything further than 2 and a half miles

Even his P2P wasnt 3 miles

[DenmanSacre]

I'd be of the opinion that for the very best horses, trip is essentially meaningless. They'll win over 2m or they'll win over 3 and a half miles. They way he has been talked about, everyone close to him and the wider Irish horseracing community think he is a freak and a potential once in a generation horse. They've talked about the Gold Cup for him since his bumper days.

When you get a horse like that - Kauto Star, Desert Orchid etc - they are effective over all trips. Recently we've had A Plus Tard, Sizing John etc who have proven to be effective over the minimum trip and the Gold Cup trip.

You've also had Gold Cup winners running over 2 miles as a novice chaser and stepping up. Sizing John, Best Mate, Kicking King, Long Run are some of the most recent ones.

I'd have no worries at all that he would stay. His biggest worry for the Gold Cup is that Monkfish also looks a freak.

[Kautostar]

Not sure I follow?

Why would people think him falling means he won't stay?

He couldve won on the snaff by 10 lengths and be 2/1 fav for the gold cup and he'd still have stamina doubts because he's unproven over anything further than 2 and a half miles

Even his P2P wasnt 3 miles

There wasn’t a negative comment to be read about the horse prior to last Thursday and now every pundit in the land seems to want him to be aimed at a champion hurdle/champion chase/ryanair on the back of one fall. I don’t think we would have seen any of this had he stood up and won the marsh.