General Chat

[Garrison Savannah]

NC I won’t quote the whole of your eloquent post but just to comment on your point 5.

A photo is a moment in time. It tells us only what was happening the millisecond it was taken.

Now, had you are I been in that yard for the 7 days either side of the day that photograph was taken, we may have come away with the impression that Elliott and his team were super professional, held the horses in the highest regard, and animal welfare was at the forefront of everything they did.

Or we may have left the yard utterly disgusted with their working practices, professionalism, and behaviour towards the welfare of the animals under their care.

It may have been a moment of madness, something he regretted almost as soon as he’d done it. He may just be a massive womble. I’ve no idea, and even if I did, you can’t hang someone for thinking someone is a womble if you can’t prove it.

[Garrison Savannah]

While it doesn't absolutely pose a welfare issue, I completely understand the view that if he shows this level of contempt to a horse that has died in his care, are there any issues to horses alive in his care.

I understand that view too - and that’s actually what might cause him the longest harm in the end. Not what punishment the IHRB sanction, but what owners or what potential future owners will do, if there’s the smallest doubt in their mind because of this.

[Carnage at Taunton]

While it doesn't absolutely pose a welfare issue, I completely understand the view that if he shows this level of contempt to a horse that has died in his care, are there any issues to horses alive in his care.

Thats one of the issues that people will be thinking about, especially those that are anti horseracing.
Unfortunately those people, as well as us, do not know if this goes on in any stable, and this whole sorry situation has provided ammunition.

[ryanh97]

[/B]

Thats one of the issues that people will be thinking about, especially those that are anti horseracing.
Unfortunately those people, as well as us, do not know if this goes on in any stable, and this whole sorry situation has provided ammunition.

This also comes back to something I mentioned earlier. I think it's thoroughly disappointing that no other leading trainers have condemned this. To outsiders, it makes them all look contempt

[Craigy14]

I think any investigation should include various owners and regular visitors, staff of his yard.

That will paint the picture of how Gordon Elliott the trainer treats and respects the horses in his care.

I think and hope (have no evidence) that he does not act in the manner that the photo has shown. This is why I would have no issue with owners of his horses coming out and “backing” him to a certain extent because the GE they know is not the idiot that had a moment of immense stupidity.

This moment of madness is complete stupidity and is how I would view it now after a day or so thinking about it. Hate social media but it’s part of the world we live in now. That’s the lasting damage it will have on the sport and his reputation.

I think on reflection most will see that, but in the eye of the storm people will want his head.

[charlie]

Its not even close imo

And the implications of it have been brushed over

There certainly wasn't as much of an outcry

I agree. For me drugging a horse so it underperforms to win money is ten times worse than what Gordon did. They endangered every human and equine life in that race, yet the response from joe public in comparison to this was generally fairly muted. As an act the drugging is ten times worse IMO than what Gordon did, but for racings image I'd say what Gordon did will have 10 times the impact and coverage, so be far more damaging to racing in the long term.

[TCH29]

I think some perspective is needed ...

I agree with all that, Ista, but I don’t see where my original posts is without perspective. He’s let a lot of people down, a lot of people who care about their industry, whose income relies on it, as well as those who defend it repeatedly from animal rights activists. It’s patently not just Giggingstown who are the only offender party.

Otherwise, agree with your whole post.

in short, I think he’s been stupid and he, and he alone, has to pay the price for the good of the wider sport. I don’t think that price should be permanent”, but certainly months and meaning he misses Cheltenham, Aintree, etc. However, I don’t think the stable hands and owners should be punished by the horses not running.

I personally don’t think it’s a difficult one fir the IHRB to get right.

[Hurricane fly]

With regards to the Charles Brynes incident I agree that in principle the drugging of a horse is much worse than this photo.

However, in the court of public opinion the fact that Gordon Elliott is a much bigger name overtakes that fact.
I saw someone use other sports as an example for bad things that go on, and to further that Michael Vick being involved/ having links to a dog fighting ring was much bigger news than Donte Stallworth killing a woman while drunk driving. Why? Because Mike Vick was a superstar and an icon whereas Stallworth was not.

One crime was undoubtedly worse than the other but the other received much more media coverage.

Other sports also do not have to continually battle against misplaced animal welfare groups continually trying to attack the sport, whether it be due to animals perishing after a fall or the whip debate. No other sport deals with that sort of intense microscope on it and one of the top 5 people in the sport for name recognition being embroiled in this magnifies everything which makes it much worse for the sport. This will be brought up in every debate about racing for as long as he trains, and the reality is that is the most damaging thing about it all.

Do I think he will lose his license? No

Do I think he will lose some horses? Yes

Do I think that in 5 years time he will still be fighting for the trainers championship? Yes

He will undoubtedly lose some money and popularity, however once this becomes fish and chip packaging owners will still have him training their horses if they believe he is the best choice, which Gigginstown have already indicated they will do.

[Spectre]

from all of that,
to have an issue with the person who has posted it, rather than the act itself, i can't personally fathom.

But that isn't what I said is it. That's just putting incorrect and misleading words in my mouth.

I said I have an issue with the person who posted it as well as the act itself. Both are a problem. Elliott needs to be investigated and deal with what's dished out after the findings. Do you really think I'm any less shocked than you or anyone else? That seems to be what you're saying. In fact you went one step further and suggested I have a problem with it because of my antepost bets, which is completely out of order and you know it, which is why you chose to ignore it.

Why the hell I need to defend myself for anything I've posted I really don't know.

[ToniC]

Meanwhile he’s got a 4-timer in in punchestown today. Couldn’t write this game at times

[riccirich]

NC I won’t quote the whole of your eloquent post but just to comment on your point 5.

A photo is a moment in time. It tells us only what was happening the millisecond it was taken.

Now, had you are I been in that yard for the 7 days either side of the day that photograph was taken, we may have come away with the impression that Elliott and his team were super professional, held the horses in the highest regard, and animal welfare was at the forefront of everything they did.

Or we may have left the yard utterly disgusted with their working practices, professionalism, and behaviour towards the welfare of the animals under their care.

It may have been a moment of madness, something he regretted almost as soon as he’d done it. He may just be a massive womble. I’ve no idea, and even if I did, you can’t hang someone for thinking someone is a womble if you can’t prove it.

Agree with a good portion of this.

If this is the only photo to be leaked and nothing else even more shocking comes out about elliotts attitude towards the horses in his care, then I think it is unfair to be calling for the book to be thrown at him over this one picture.

while what he has done is not something that I would ever do as I think I would have more respect for any dead animal, he hasnt done something that I have a HUGE problem with. I think it makes him look like an idiot and probably not somebody that I would like very much, but I dont think it makes him a terrible person who should be stripped of his license immediately.

one thought I had was the amount of times I have been to funerals of family members or people I knew, where somebody has made a joke about the deceased person that got a laugh. The person who would make the joke is not doing it in a malicious manner because they did not like the deceased person, they would simply do it to try to lighten the mood/ try to have a bit of a laugh to make themselves feel a bit better.

If somebody whipped out a phone and took a pic at this precise moment, you would get the impression that the people laughing in the photo did not care too much about the deceased person, while in reality nothing could be further from the truth.

while this is obviously not a direct comparison, you can understand the point I am trying to make? For all we know 30 seconds after this pic was taken elliott could have been giving the horse a pat and talking about how sad his death is, and this very ill advised "joke" could have just been his very poor attempt at trying to lighten the mood.

this would make him a fool and a bit stupid yes, but somebody who doesnt give a toss about horse welfare? I think that would be slightly harsh given that we dont have all the facts.

while I am in no way saying that this is fact or definitely what I think happened, it is entirely possible that this could be the case.

[Rooster Booster]

Agree with a good portion of this.

If this is the only photo to be leaked and nothing else even more shocking comes out about elliotts attitude towards the horses in his care, then I think it is unfair to be calling for the book to be thrown at him over this one picture.

while what he has done is not something that I would ever do as I think I would have more respect for any dead animal, he hasnt done something that I have a HUGE problem with. I think it makes him look like an idiot and probably not somebody that I would like very much, but I dont think it makes him a terrible person who should be stripped of his license immediately.

one thought I had was the amount of times I have been to funerals of family members or people I knew, where somebody has made a joke about the deceased person that got a laugh. The person who would make the joke is not doing it in a malicious manner because they did not like the deceased person, they would simply do it to try to lighten the mood/ try to have a bit of a laugh to make themselves feel a bit better.

If somebody whipped out a phone and took a pic at this precise moment, you would get the impression that the people laughing in the photo did not care too much about the deceased person, while in reality nothing could be further from the truth.

while this is obviously not a direct comparison, you can understand the point I am trying to make? For all we know 30 seconds after this pic was taken elliott could have been giving the horse a pat and talking about how sad his death is, and this very ill advised "joke" could have just been his very poor attempt at trying to lighten the mood.

this would make him a fool and a bit stupid yes, but somebody who doesnt give a toss about horse welfare? I think that would be slightly harsh given that we dont have all the facts.

while I am in no way saying that this is fact or definitely what I think happened, it is entirely possible that this could be the case.

How many people would laugh if somebody got the deceased out of the coffin and sat on it

[riccirich]

How many people would laugh if somebody got the deceased out of the coffin and sat on it

I was waiting for somebody to say that

Thats why I said "its not a direct comparison" without going into much more detail. But I think sitting on a dead person in a coffin is another few levels up from sitting on a dead horse in a field, as much as I dont agree with sitting on the horse either.

[Rooster Booster]

I was waiting for somebody to say that

Thats why I said "its not a direct comparison" without going into much more detail. But I think sitting on a dead person in a coffin is another few levels up from sitting on a dead horse in a field, as much as I dont agree with sitting on the horse either.

I accept that but how we all feel about this whilst possibly therapeutic to discuss amongst ourselves is fairly academic imo.

The outside world will be the ultimate judge and jury not the internal racing world and we can rationalise and mitigate and everything else until we have no more strength left but we do not have control of this now.

The powers that be now have responsibility to act in a way that attempts to limit the long term damage on this sport that we love so much and that has to be their primary responsibility. I suspect there may well be a disconnect between acting with the best interest of the sport as a whole and acting with proportion and perspective towards GE. It is clear that many on here will struggle with that enormously which I totally understand but it’s how I think this is heading.

[Redbridge]

My wife has just ask me to shift my arse on our dead animal sofa