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Had Isabella Giles and Century Dream today which is now rolling on to Shiskin and Envoi in the Marsh. With other roll ups already ‘landed’ I stand to get a 1400 point return if they oblige. Pretty pleased with this so far but will be looking to get a few more bets rolling onto them.
Had Isabella Giles and Century Dream today which is now rolling on to Shiskin and Envoi in the Marsh. With other roll ups already ‘landed’ I stand to get a 1400 point return if they oblige. Pretty pleased with this so far but will be looking to get a few more bets rolling onto them.
Losing attempts?
Putting up the selections beforehand?
That has to be the point of the thread? I have zero interest in reading people after timing anywhere but their own diaries, which whilst not ideal is at least contained.
That has to be the point of the thread? I have zero interest in reading people after timing anywhere but their own diaries, which whilst not ideal is at least contained.
This thread (I thought) is to help ...
I agree with the roll-ups comment Kev.
Its something I mentioned in the prior page (link below) where roll-ups can overtake actual direct backing of horses in singles in diaries.
Thats great, I use them too, to get shorter priced Festival horses into my Festival book, but they do feel like they are "unregulated" compared to putting up single Festival selections and stakes, and reasons why you prefer that horse to others.
Its the reason that I suggested splitting out ongoing rollover bets from "pure" single selections in any diary pages.
I think rollovers are more like multis and doubles on the Festival than individual selections.
They are key parts of a lot of peoples Festival plans, but I personally would prefer to see them recorded in separate lists/sections of a diary along with a dump total of losses on each section.
Reflecting on the 2020 Cheltenham Festival and building up towards 2021. Threads on all major races including Gold Cup, Queen Mother and Champion Hurdle. Share early Cheltenham Festival Tips and check out our preview night reports.
I agree with Q's earlier comments and also with Archie that the Trump bets doubled up with Cheltenham are Ante Post doubles, since when most of these were struck both event were a significant duration away from happening.
Personally I still argue that roll-ups of a selection say today with one at Cheltenham should have no place whatsoever in a Cheltenham Ante Post bets portfolio or diary as they are totally unrelated and irrelevant. I know that others don't have the same opinion and that's up to them.
In terms of recording the roll-ups, in my opinion a roll-up which fails because the initial non Cheltenham selection loses is a loss against someones general betting bank and not Cheltenham, as the Cheltenham part hasn't occurred. Where the first leg of the roll-up wins say 1 point at 10-1 then for consistency (with the recording of non roll-up bets), in my opinion the rolled-up bet stake against the Cheltenham selection should be 11 points. Effectively the individual by doubling up has chosen to spend 11 points on the Cheltenham selection, not just the single point.
In summary I guess I'm advocating that roll-ups should not be recorded in Cheltenham diarys at all, only the live Cheltenham bet at full stakes.
100% agree! Everyone has the right to put in thier diary as they so wish, personally I dont think they should be there.
Looking through diaries this morning I think most are quite messy that have them, some do have them easily stated but still don't like it and taking them with pinch salt.
What would the difference be in my having a good weekend and putting profit on a festival fancy, would you put it as a roll up? For example I wouldnt, and would record for example just the price of the chosen selection, so I ask whats the difference?
I agree with these comments, I think by the time the festival comes round everyone will be so confused they will be counter productive.
Let’s take Hurricane Fly (or it could be COD), as an example, they could have a great festival but if Trump loses it could appear an average one. Yet the two things are totally unrelated.
If you put on a double and the first part wins 4pts, then record that as 4pts on at the Cheltenham A/P price.
If people want to record a separate pts up or down figure to account for what has already been gained or lost during the run up then at least that’s only one figure to account for, and the rest of the diary is easier on the eye.
Just my two pennies & feel free to ignore but there’s a danger the boards will become more about non festival bets than the Cheltenham races.
100% agree! Everyone has the right to put in thier diary as they so wish, personally I dont think they should be there.
Looking through diaries this morning I think most are quite messy that have them, some do have them easily stated but still don't like it and taking them with pinch salt.
What would the difference be in my having a good weekend and putting profit on a festival fancy, would you put it as a roll up? For example I wouldnt, and would record for example just the price of the chosen selection, so I ask whats the difference?
That makes more sense I suppose, as it pulls together all those that back (for example) a St Leger runner with a Festival runner.
Curtently some will record that as a rollover win at big odds to a small stake.
Others would think thats a flat racing single, and if it wins then any invested on a Festival bet is a separate single.
Would your thoughts be that:-
For example St Leger bet wins at 1pt @9/1 and you have it doubled with a Festival horse at 16/1 then its fairer to record it as 10pts @16/1 rather than 1pt @169/1.
I’d agree. I have some running with Safe Voyage and Tiz The Law which I recorded. I also had some losers on the golf which are also recorded, and the points loss is already at the end of my opening diary page. I’ve also just done some with Golden Pal that I will record. I have no intention of posting anything after the event. It completely misses the point. If I haven’t posted or added at the time (or certainly with in a few days), then they don’t count for my diary, and I won’t record them at all. I keep separate records from my diary anyway, so I can include them for my own purposes. I’m not going to aftertime bets in my diary.
SW is right though. At the end of the day these are just multis. At the moment they’re recorded amongst my multis, but I am going to separate them out so they can be clearly differentiated as roll ups from events outside of the Festival. I also have some doubles ups from races like the King George on to the Festival that I’m not sure I have on there at all. Also Nortons200 pointed out yesterday that Lisnager Oscar was missing completely from my diary, so I’m going to double check whether I missed anything else when I first posted my diary when I get time. I’ll give it a full tidy up to ensure it’s complete, accurate, and clearly identified by bet type.
Having thought more about rollovers, as many people are using their skills at picking US election winners, Grand Prix winners, US racing winners, Flat Racing winners, Etc, Etc, as a way to fill holes in their Festival portfolio.
My choice for rollovers is generally antepost flat racing, as that’s what I know best, for others it’s different.
Rollovers are therefore becoming more based on my skill (or not) to pick antepost Flat racing winners, rather than my skill at picking Cheltenham winners.
It’s not sitting well with me now, to confuse the two.
Peoples 2020 Diaries didn’t tend to have this type of bet in it, and they looked cleaner for it.
The one issue I have left on rollovers, is that if/when I have backed a winner on the flat in a double with a Festival horse then of course I have then covered Honeysuckle or Minella Indo (or whoever) to win races, so I may not need to back it again as a single.
If I don’t back it again, then my Festival list of single bets wouldn’t include those horses, so it would have holes in it, that aren’t really there.
I will come up with a solution for this, for myself, one day, I’m sure.
The one issue I have left on rollovers, is that if/when I have backed a winner on the flat in a double with a Festival horse then of course I have then covered Honeysuckle or Minella Indo (or whoever) to win races, so I may not need to back it again as a single.
If I don’t back it again, then my Festival list of single bets wouldn’t include those horses, so it would have holes in it, that aren’t really there.
I will come up with a solution for this, for myself, one day, I’m sure.
Perhaps we need a collective re-think and approach to the diaries across the forum then? A model for them perhaps?
It depends what people use them for, if at all....
When I started them, it was purely to remove the "this is what I've done" from every single individual race thread to leave the 'race threads' to be about reasoned debate and not "should I cash this out" etc...
It'll never be perfect, but there seems to be a genuine need to review the set-up as it is now...
My diary will become a lot cleaner in the second week of November.
I could potentially have a very big number in my loss column that I would attribute to Trump roll up - 40pts or (and I hope this is what will happen) is I will have a lot of horses with ** next to them which I used last year to illustrate the last leg of a roll up with their double/treble price next to them.
I have after timing on some roll ups - both winning and losing - as outside of Trump most of them are when I fancy a football game or something similar at the time (often in play) and decide to double it with a selection, so I put the bet on and my first thought isn’t always to come here and post it. It is obviously something open to abuse where by I could not show losing ones but that is no different than any entry into the diary, you could hold off showing bets on vulnerable horses like CPS until much closer to the time, in reality you are only kidding yourself.
Anyway i found the * for free bets and ** for roll ups worked well for me last year and once Trump wins I will be able to do that properly again. In the mean time I frankly can not be bothered to write out in full all of my doubles and trebles again so have just shown the horse with stake rather than roll up odds.
As for whether they should be classed as ante post losses or general losses I think that is a case by case decision. For example yesterday I backed Spurs in play and doubled with Min. I would have put that bet on anyway so you could argue if they lost it would be a general betting loss that happened to be a Roll up. However, I also have plenty of doubles that’s were placed with the sole purpose of increasing my Cheltenham horses odds, and that in my opinion should be classed as an antepost loss.
Again, only the individual would know, for me if appearing to have the best book possible is that important to you then you can go ahead and play it that way. I would think that that is then actually quite sad, but it is your money so if you want to tell yourself that go ahead. Others will be truthful and I would think it will be obvious how people play it based on what they post.
Last edited by Hurricane fly; 30 August 2020, 10:55 AM.
For me it’s simple. If the roll up is in the diary ahead of the event then fine. If it’s not or it’s an oversight, it’s in our own personal records or betting accounts anyway. It is all part of some kind of wider p&l that’s not relevant to bets recorded on here for all to see.
I think the thing to do is to agree a standardised format for recording bets in diaries with some basic rules, so each diary is clean and easy to understand.
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