Queen Mother Champion Chase 2021

[Outlaw]

Still crabbing the form of the Arkle until I see PTKO or Fakir do something. In no rush to be backing these at bigger prices.

Al Dancer is a handicapper
Rough Vif was impressive but ground can easily defeat a horse like him

Exactly, if you take todays effort then the Arkle literally the 1-2 that day are 170 easily

[Istabraq]

Could well just be the ground.
!

Not an argument I buy into, he has plenty of decent form in the book on deep ground to my eyes
Someone made the point a while ago that Cheltenham wasn't a course he acts on and that was a potential chink until today, no doubt bottomless ground can take its' toll at the end of a long season but that March ground was OK, soft but not bottomless and it was of course fresh ground, Rouge Vif has also raced 6 and 7 times a year in his two full seasons, no question to me he is a reliable yardstick and as said already that performance today only increases confidence for PTKO and although JOB has said otherwise, there is still a chance Fakir lands here too...

[Another Value Loser]

I must admit I'm a little more excited about the PTKO Tingle Creek bets now too...


Let's not get carried away though, as if any of them flop we'll get shot at.

Has the Tingle Creek been confirmed as a target for her Kev?

[Quevega]

I took that as a firm franking of the form of the arkle 1-2.

The horses finishing 3,4 and 5 that day all have similar back form. And just could not live with the front 2 on the day, and neither could the Irish challengers.

Don't buy the ground thing with Rouge Vif personally, as there's no strong/real evidence for that just yet. It's a bit guessy.

Although I'd accept that his win today was potentially flattering as the ground may have inconvenienced some of his opponents more than him. And today's race was probably not that good in hindsight and his class has shown through quite clearly.

Having said that, the distances have to be taken with a bit of a pinch (both today and the arkle) as like outlaw has said, it shouldn't be deduced that the front 2 are definitely 165+ horses.

[Kevloaf]

Has the Tingle Creek been confirmed as a target for her Kev?

The Shloer is the confirmed next target, so no.... I just think they'll run her in it after that If she's not shite beforehand.

[Outlaw]

Not an argument I buy into, he has plenty of decent form in the book on deep ground to my eyes
Someone made the point a while ago that Cheltenham wasn't a course he acts on and that was a potential chink until today, no doubt bottomless ground can take its' toll at the end of a long season but that March ground was OK, soft but not bottomless and it was of course fresh ground, Rouge Vif has also raced 6 and 7 times a year in his two full seasons, no question to me he is a reliable yardstick and as said already that performance today only increases confidence for PTKO and although JOB has said otherwise, there is still a chance Fakir lands here too...

Time will tell as plenty of us have different opinions on the race. He has proved it's not course but you don't run sub 4min over that cd unless it's decent ground so for me it clearly makes a difference to him. Super effort from the lad simply outclassed them, whilst I'm semi ranting,fair play if you take the 66s immediately after but bar individual diaries what good is sharing it on the threads if not making a case before hand?

[Another Value Loser]

The Shloer is the confirmed next target, so no.... I just think they'll run her in it after that If she's not shite beforehand.

Ok, cheers Kev

[Istabraq]

An angle that I don't believe has ever been covered is that it's entirely possible PTKO is a better horse on quicker ground.
Beat Gypsy Island giving her weight over hurdles and racked up some impressive chase performances on proper Summer ground last year having previously disappointed on soft ground (over hurdles).
Nothing to say she won't improve for a quicker surface...

[Saxon Warrior]

An angle that I don't believe has ever been covered is that it's entirely possible PTKO is a better horse on quicker ground.
Beat Gypsy Island giving her weight over hurdles and racked up some impressive chase performances on proper Summer ground last year having previously disappointed on soft ground (over hurdles).
Nothing to say she won't improve for a quicker surface...

She missed the whole winter-ground season after running all summer last year, so I think it’s pretty easy to say that good ground would not be detrimental to her chances.

[archie]

I just can't have a single race, 30 weeks after another race, as a significant boost for the form of the first race. Events may in the end show that it is but collateral form for another single race would have Robin De Carlow as 170 as well.

[Dessie the great]

I just can't have a single race, 30 weeks after another race, as a significant boost for the form of the first race. Events may in the end show that it is but collateral form for another single race would have Robin De Carlow as 170 as well.

Ive had this arguement already, I dont get why the default view of so many is that it was a shite arkle. It was run in a quicker time than the champiin chase on worse ground and now only two horses have run from the Arkle and both have won

[Quevega]

Ive had this arguement already, I dont get why the default view of so many is that it was a shite arkle. It was run in a quicker time than the champiin chase on worse ground and now only two horses have run from the Arkle and both have won

True, the evidence is stacking up.
That side of the argument - to which I was on the fence looking at both sides - is beginning to look weaker.

[Istabraq]

I just can't have a single race, 30 weeks after another race, as a significant boost for the form of the first race. Events may in the end show that it is but collateral form for another single race would have Robin De Carlow as 170 as well.

I haven’t taken todays running as a significant boost but it’s certainly done it no harm, and much of the discussion in here has been as a result of the differing opinions on the standard of the Arkle.
Someone pointed out earlier (maybe SW) that Rouge Vif is likely to get a mark around 165, clearly no-one thinks PTKO and Fakir are 180+ horses but the performance of todays winner has to give greater credibility to the Arkle renewal, I’d be surprised if that provoked a counter argument...

[Quevega]

I haven’t taken todays running as a significant boost but it’s certainly done it no harm, and much of the discussion in here has been as a result of the differing opinions on the standard of the Arkle.
Someone pointed out earlier (maybe SW) that Rouge Vif is likely to get a mark around 165, clearly no-one thinks PTKO and Fakir are 180+ horses but the performance of todays winner has to give greater credibility to the Arkle renewal, I’d be surprised if that provoked a counter argument...

They should really be looking at Rouge Vif running again in November in the Schloer now, so we may see soon enough.

[Dessie the great]

Maybe, or they could wait for the Tingle Creek as he would hardly have 3 quick runs so early in the season. It still could turn out to be a shite arkle but I dont understand how the default is its a brilliant supreme and a shite arkle even though the front two pulled miles clear in both?