Queen Mother Champion Chase 2021

[Dessie the great]

If everything lined up I could see her behind Chacun altior defi & politologue in which case no bet on her was considering for a while but just don’t think she’s good enough! Interesting listening to Barry about defi on the FFP he still seems to think a lot about him

Really?? You think Politalogue would beat the mare? I would question whether Defi would either.

PTKO ran a faster time over Course and Distance both in November and March than both Politalogue and Defi. The novice chase at Sandiwn was also won in a faster time than the Tingle Creek.

I think Defi (over 2 miles) is an average open G1 horse and needs to step up in trip to achieve his potential. He has been winning poor G1 chases with slow times.

While Politaligue is admirable, I don't think Politalogue is a proper open G1 horse.

She would have to improve considerably to beat Chacun or Altior at the top of their game but that is not beyond the bounds pf possibility. Also Chacin has never run around Cheltenham so he has that question mark. Altior may or may not be back to his best next season.

There may be more danger from A Plus Tard if dropped back in trip although trainer will surely keep them apart. Hard enough to see her outside of the 3 in what might be a 6 or 7 runner field.

[Lobos]

Defi might just be unreliable at times. Had one terrible season and then threw in a stinker in the Champion Chase. Think I'll avoid him next year.

[Hardy Eustace]

Defi might just be unreliable at times. Had one terrible season and then threw in a stinker in the Champion Chase. Think I'll avoid him next year.

Discounting dual festival winners lobos, lobos, lobos... I am not angry, I am just disappointed

[Lobos]

Discounting dual festival winners lobos, lobos, lobos... I am not angry, I am just disappointed

I know, terrible isn't it. I have to discount some as I'll end up backing everything!

[Spectre]

I'm still not convinced that any of Defi's two mile chases truly stand up to scrutiny. They certainly don't merit his two mile chase rating.

[Lobos]

I'm still not convinced that any of Defi's two mile chases truly stand up to scrutiny. They certainly don't merit his two mile chase rating.

Yeah, I get that. He did have it all his own way last season. Things fell right for him.

[Kevloaf]

I'm still not convinced that any of Defi's two mile chases truly stand up to scrutiny. They certainly don't merit his two mile chase rating.

You don't beat Un De Sceaux over 2 miles unless you're a very good two mile chaser, do you?

[SamuelP]

You don't beat Un De Sceaux over 2 miles unless you're a very good two mile chaser, do you?

And Politologue twice - the current Champion Chaser

[Dessie the great]

They only beat Marracudja by 4ls. If you are telling me thats peak Un De Sceaux then I dont know whay to say. He is a 12 yr old who has been retired since. Politalogue, though admirable, is a very average open G1 2 mile chaser in my opinion. He could place in a sub standard CC again next season if he makes it back again.

[Kevloaf]

They only beat Marracudja by 4ls. If you are telling me thats peak Un De Sceaux then I dont know whay to say. He is a 12 yr old who has been retired since. Politalogue, though admirable, is a very average open G1 2 mile chaser in my opinion. He could place in a sub standard CC again next season if he makes it back again.

Would you not accept that some horses aren't ridden in a way that'd create big winning distances?

Defi Du Seuil is ridden to not hit the front too soon.... therefore he'll never put in a Secretariat like performance. He is unlikely to ever be in front before the last...

Buveur D'air was similar, a horse who will just beat what is in front of them.... dangerous to write off literally because of proximity of other horses?



The mighty Altior only beat Politilogue 1.75L in a QMCC too, if you want to pick and choose form lines to go to battle with?

[Dessie the great]

Would you not accept that some horses aren't ridden in a way that'd create big winning distances?

Defi Du Seuil is ridden to not hit the front too soon.... therefore he'll never put in a Secretariat like performance. He is unlikely to ever be in front before the last...

Buveur D'air was similar, a horse who will just beat what is in front of them.... dangerous to write off literally because of proximity of other horses?



The mighty Altior only beat Politilogue 1.75L in a QMCC too, if you want to pick and choose form lines to go to battle with?

Maybe, but novices ran faster times than defi and politalogue ovee the same course and distance three times last season. The one time Defi was made to jump at genuine 2 m pace he wasnt up to it in my eyes.

Mullins was livid with Townend for the slow pace he set in Ascot. I just dont think Defi is a genuine 2 miler, has been winning sub standard G1s imo over 2 miles

[Kevloaf]

Maybe, but novices ran faster times than defi and politalogue ovee the same course and distance three times last season. The one time Defi was made to jump at genuine 2 m pace he wasnt up to it in my eyes.

Mullins was livid with Townend for the slow pace he set in Ascot. I just dont think Defi is a genuine 2 miler, has been winning sub standard G1s imo over 2 miles

Was the QMCC the only time he had to run and jump at a genuine 2m pace?
I disagree with that, I think the QMCC was worse than some of the races he'd won?

I always wonder when people take so much notice of times from different races, how they think horses would have performed? Do you genuinly believe that Defi and UDS would have been beaten by Put The Kettle On and Fakir D'oudaries last season?

They may have ran faster, but if Defi Du Seuil would have contested those races, he may have looked even more impressive. They'd have gone faster and he'd may have swept past just as easily?




I've only backed Defi Du Seuil for the Ryanair, so I'm not disagreeing that he might not be a "genuine 2-miler", but I also couldn't hit him with a stick for being better than average in that sphere, which he definitely is.

[Dessie the great]

Was the QMCC the only time he had to run and jump at a genuine 2m pace?
I disagree with that, I think the QMCC was worse than some of the races he'd won?

I always wonder when people take so much notice of times from different races, how they think horses would have performed? Do you genuinly believe that Defi and UDS would have been beaten by Put The Kettle On and Fakir D'oudaries last season?

They may have ran faster, but if Defi Du Seuil would have contested those races, he may have looked even more impressive. They'd have gone faster and he'd may have swept past just as easily?




I've only backed Defi Du Seuil for the Ryanair, so I'm not disagreeing that he might not be a "genuine 2-miler", but I also couldn't hit him with a stick for being better than average in that sphere, which he definitely is.

He is obviously better than average and that is not what I said. Is he a genuine G1 performer over 2 miles in my opinion? No. The only time he has had to jump at proper 2 mile championship pace was in this years champion chase and he lacked fluency imo.

Would I back PTKO or Fakir against him in an open 2 m event next season if both were the same price as Defi? Yes I think I would.

Chacun, Altior, A Plus Tard, Min are genuine G1 performers over 2 miles imo. 2 of them will prob run in the ryanair to avoid clashes with other horses in the yard, leaving an opening for a novice to improve and step up in grade. If around Cheltenham PTKO is the most likely imo. On a flat track maybe Rouge Vif or Global Citizen. In Ireland maybe Notebook or Fakir

[ComplyOrDie]

I'm still not convinced that any of Defi's two mile chases truly stand up to scrutiny. They certainly don't merit his two mile chase rating.

Absolutely, 100%, this!

[Istabraq]

Appreciate not everyone is wedded to times but interesting to note that last seasons Arkle was run in a time 2 secs quicker than the Champion Chase run 24 hours later on quicker ground.
There are a few in here who believe that Arkle renewal was a weak renewal, time will no doubt tell but the clock suggests otherwise...