Queen Mother Champion Chase 2021

[charlie]

Yep, disappointing for me personally.
I've written off my Champion Chase bets and had a small Ryanair play and topped up any race, the interesting this is who JPs horse(s) will be for this, Le Richbourg hasn't been seen for 18+ months and missed two festivals since finishing tailed off in a County Hurdle, does this mean the Defi De Seuil could be given this as his target once again...

I don't think that's a stick to beat him with tbf. Politilogue won the QMCC having finished 16th in a Coral Cup - it's just not really that relevant IMO, especially with the amount of time that's passed between the two. The injury and 18 months is obviously the major concern but that's why he's 40/1. I will be spectacularly wrong about lots of horses at that price mind

[charlie]

I do not think Defi is a 2 and a half miler
He likes races which are ridden at a false pace. He wont get that in a Ryanair

Expect to see him back in the QM

Can a Grade 1 festival winner over 2 and a half miles not be a 2 and a half miler?

[Istabraq]

I don't think that's a stick to beat him with tbf. Politilogue won the QMCC having finished 16th in a Coral Cup - it's just not really that relevant IMO, especially with the amount of time that's passed between the two. The injury and 18 months is obviously the major concern but that's why he's 40/1. I will be spectacularly wrong about lots of horses at that price mind

Possibly Charlie, but it’s equally possible the horse has travel issues or course issues, would be great if you could ask the question and get the answer but that’s unlikely to be possible for a few million years.
Ultimately I’m guessing, but sure you or anyone would have increased confidence in the horse had he run well at the track in the past.
I rate the horse and have had dead Arkle and Queen Mother vouchers the past couple of years, so maybe I’m just bitter....

[opatcho]

Can a Grade 1 festival winner over 2 and a half miles not be a 2 and a half miler?

Seriously, winning a Marsh that barely had any pace in it doesn’t mean you’re a 2 and a half miler

Defi is all speed. That it. Simple.... and the Ryanair will likely (like most years) be ran at a decent pace throughout

.... so why do you think he’s a 2 and a half miler, and you do you fancy him in a competitive Ryanair?

[ComplyOrDie]

Defi Du Seuil is not even close to being a great 2m chaser.

He won some absolutely desperate races over the trip last season before running an absolute stinker at a track he is usually very reliable at.

The 2m Chase division in England is appalling, to be quite honest.

He run over 2m 3f+ 4 times in his novice season winning 3 and finishing 2nd (behind the 2020 Gold Cup 3rd) in them races. His novice chase form holds up a whole lot better than the races he has run in and won over 2m in open company last season, with the exception of beating Politologue whom won what must be one of the weakest festival G1's ever!

[opatcho]

Don’t fancy him for any fez race

[Istabraq]

As we’ve talked plenty of times, there’s a big difference between the two courses at Cheltenham and Defi’s worst performances have all come on the speedy old course whereas his better performances have come on the more demanding new course, so for me he’s more stamina than speed.

[Lobos]

As we’ve talked plenty of times, there’s a big difference between the two courses at Cheltenham and Defi’s worst performances have all come on the speedy old course whereas his better performances have come on the more demanding new course, so for me he’s more stamina than speed.

Good shout

[charlie]

Seriously, winning a Marsh that barely had any pace in it doesn’t mean you’re a 2 and a half miler

Defi is all speed. That it. Simple.... and the Ryanair will likely (like most years) be ran at a decent pace throughout

.... so why do you think he’s a 2 and a half miler, and you do you fancy him in a competitive Ryanair?

So losing to CPS, beating up 11 year old UDS and then bombing out in the QMCC makes him an out and out 2 miler?

Re 2 and a half miles, I don't think my opinion matters. He's a multiple grade 1 winner, including over C&D, and the trainer set out the season last year by targeting the Ryanair. Im with COD, Defi Du Seuil is not a great 2m chaser - think it's probably fair to add 'yet'

[charlie]

Possibly Charlie, but it’s equally possible the horse has travel issues or course issues, would be great if you could ask the question and get the answer but that’s unlikely to be possible for a few million years.
Ultimately I’m guessing, but sure you or anyone would have increased confidence in the horse had he run well at the track in the past.
I rate the horse and have had dead Arkle and Queen Mother vouchers the past couple of years, so maybe I’m just bitter....

Yeh fair points Istabraq, a lot of unknowns!

[ComplyOrDie]

As we’ve talked plenty of times, there’s a big difference between the two courses at Cheltenham and Defi’s worst performances have all come on the speedy old course whereas his better performances have come on the more demanding new course, so for me he’s more stamina than speed.

Very valid point Ista

[Kevloaf]

Defi Du Seuil is not even close to being a great 2m chaser.

He won some absolutely desperate races over the trip last season before running an absolute stinker at a track he is usually very reliable at.

The 2m Chase division in England is appalling, to be quite honest.

He run over 2m 3f+ 4 times in his novice season winning 3 and finishing 2nd (behind the 2020 Gold Cup 3rd) in them races. His novice chase form holds up a whole lot better than the races he has run in and won over 2m in open company last season, with the exception of beating Politologue whom won what must be one of the weakest festival G1's ever!

I think Defi Du Seuil by the end of his career will be considered 'great'. He's already won at the top level over hurdles and fences. Multiple festival winner. Won G1 at 2m and the intermediate trip. I wouldn't count against him winning at 3m at the top level.
To say he's not a 'great' 2m chaser just depends on how you define great... in years to come the history books will show him winning a Tingle Creek against Un De Sceaux and that'll hardly be a stick to beat him with. He's a cracking horse already even if he never sets foot on the track again.

The fact he ran the stinker at the track he's usually 'very reliable at' (understatement?) also doesn't back up your point does it?

....and before you ask, I've only had 7UP tonight

Don’t fancy him for any fez race

In my opinion it is bizarre to just claim you don't fancy him at 'the fez' without backing it up.

He's won there twice. By that alone he's worthy of considering? How can you possibly disregard him, unless again, you believe the QMCC was his actual true running and that is now his level?

[ComplyOrDie]

I never said he wouldn't ever be considered great, I said over 2m he is not. Anyone worth their salt will at least look and see (if they didn't already know) that the UDS he beat was 11 years of age and past his peak and a horse back in 3rd (only 3/4 of a length behind UDS) who had been hammered by Min (who couldn't win a Champion Chase) and the time before that by Cyrname.

I actually really like Defi at the correct trip. He's done me proud on more than one occasion throughout his career, but I don't view him and likely never will, as a great 2m chaser.

His optimum trip is the intermediate one, IMO.

[Kevloaf]

Min who couldn't win a Champion Chase (that doesn't mean he's not good)
Past his peak (that doesn't mean he's not good)

What I am saying, is that he's already proven multiple grade 1 class at 2 miles. He's won a Tingle Creek and a Triumph Hurdle. That isn't even the sum of his 2m achievements to date, yet you're saying he's not a great 2 miler...now that is surely just a technicality on what you/I/we define as 'great'.



His intermediate form so far, has him losing to Lostintranslation (who's best form is over further?) and he beat Topofthegame when TOTG gave him 20 lengths at the start? He also narrowly beat LIT at the festival. Was that Marsh win better than the Tingle Creek, or his Triumph?

How much better can you possibly believe his intermediate form to be at this point?





Now personally, as I said, I think he'd also be good at further.... and his OPTIMUM may end up being over further, but there are great horses that will win over multiple distances...but he's done enough to be described as a great two miler already (again, depending on how you define great....and for me, that's multiple Grade 1 wins at that trip.)


I wouldn't consider Dodging Bullets 'a great', who would fall into the above category, so there is clearly some poetic licence to 'great'

[The King Pimm]

I really don’t understand why they are even considering keeping Defi at 2miles. He ran his best race since his Triumph when he won the Marsh (JLT) so why go back down in distance the following season. It’s like Min all over again, too many attempts at 2 mile when he would improve and win going further like he showed.