Cheltenham Festival 2021 - Horses Targets/Trainer Quotes

[The King Pimm]

2 x Irish PtP £250K each
2 x Store horses for around £50K each
1 x French juvenile £400K

They'd all be trained by Nicky Henderson as he's my most local, high profile trainer. If any of them turned out to be shite then I'd transfer to Dan Skelton or Olly Murphy to line up a handicap with them.

Wow, I’d look forward to seeing that French juvenile out with a price tag at that.

I’d buy 2 store horses at £75,000 each and send them to Tim Vaughan in the hope of some handicap success up north, 2 x Irish PtP at £150k and 1 French Juvenile at £200k and send them to Evan Williams, I think he’s a brilliant trainer who would improve with better horses. Finally I’d buy 2 Irish PtP at £175k with what’s left and send them Rebecca Curtis in the hope of impressing her, seducing her and having her teach me how to ride and get a jump. My colours would be Black and Amber stripes if available with a crown in the back of the silks.

[The King Pimm]

2 x Irish PtP £250K each
2 x Store horses for around £50K each
1 x French juvenile £400K

They'd all be trained by Nicky Henderson as he's my most local, high profile trainer. If any of them turned out to be shite then I'd transfer to Dan Skelton or Olly Murphy to line up a handicap with them.

Any sires or mares you would aim for??

[JackieMoon33]

Any sires or mares you would aim for??

Getaway and Yeats are two that I like of the newer sires.

French juvenile is tough as they have many new sires coming on the scene.

[TigerRolllllll]

Silly comment? "Not being champion trainer"? So we should be doubting Gordon as well by that mantra? Did Gordon start off by winning 10 G1's a season? Or did it build year on year?


When Skelton has been training for as long as some of the trainers who do consistantly win big races it's a fairer comparison. He's off the mark with G1's, he's off the mark with festival winners and is improving year-on-year.... this year was a Championship G1.




Elliott, Mullins, Henderson, Nicholls?

Who else is mopping up all the big races?




I don't doubt the ability of trainers that aren't doing it, it's just circumstances, time and loyalty in some cases.




You're suggestiong Dan Skelton's ability to train a racehorse needs doubting?




Swap all his horses with all Willie's, including Kemboy, and see who has more Grade 1's at the end of next season?

The four trainers above have earned the right to get the G1 horses, but Dan Skelton will be there before his career is over.

Nothing to doubt.

Agree totally.....and if was adding one at moment, probably look at De Bromhead ahead of others......won shed load of G1s this year

[archie]

If an NH trainer has 200 winners in a season and isn't champion trainer, you have to compliment his placement but seriously doubt his ability to win big races.

I think that some have misinterpreted this. It was not a criticism of his training ability - almost anyone can train a horse and the most important part of the trainer's art is getting a horse in the right race. 200 winners in a season suggests he's getting that right.

The lack of big wins is because the horses that he has mostly aren't up to winning big races. Unfortunately, this is a sort of chicken and egg situation. Because he's developed a reputation for shrewd placing (which may or may not include concealing a horse's true ability), anyone with a very good prospect may decide that that particular skill is not needed for their pride and joy and look somewhere else.

Both Skelton and Harry Fry worked with Paul Nicholls but took different strategies when they branched out on their own. It meant that Skelton was always more likely to train more winners but Fry might just attract better horses.

[paz247]

If an NH trainer has 200 winners in a season and isn't champion trainer, you have to compliment his placement but seriously doubt his ability to win big races.

In your defence Archie, as the Kevloaf bandwagon have jumped in on you, I agree with your winning big races statement, when you look at the festival , the likes of Skelton, Tizzard, Fry, all place horses well over the season and have horses that people believe will do well at the fest etc, unfortunately if you look at the stats, the top trainers ( Hendo Mullins Elliott) sweep up
I can’t back a Tizzard horse at the fest because most seem to fail, Skeltons Roksana was fortunate last year , this year put in her place
and this year Allmankind failed to fire
Please feel free to shoot this comment down as you like guys

[somer1]

Didnt Nicholls become champion trainer a few years back when not winning a G1 that year?

[Outlaw]

In your defence Archie, as the Kevloaf bandwagon have jumped in on you, I agree with your winning big races statement, when you look at the festival , the likes of Skelton, Tizzard, Fry, all place horses well over the season and have horses that people believe will do well at the fest etc, unfortunately if you look at the stats, the top trainers ( Hendo Mullins Elliott) sweep up
I can’t back a Tizzard horse at the fest because most seem to fail, Skeltons Roksana was fortunate last year , this year put in her place
and this year Allmankind failed to fire
Please feel free to shoot this comment down as you like guys

Not shooting one another down Paz! The comment made was easily interpreted as said trainer not performing/doing well in big races. Easily argued that he has not had the ammo or a horse that has looked too class 160+ yet.
Regarding Tizzard , yes he had a dire festival this season and not the most prolific but I wouldn't want to write off any of his going forward simply because he's not deemed on a par with Mullins/Hendo/Elliott

[Faugheen_Machine]

Regarding Tizzard , yes he had a dire festival this season and not the most prolific but I wouldn't want to write off any of his going forward simply because he's not deemed on a par with Mullins/Hendo/Elliott

Agree with that Outlaw. He's won a Gold Cup, 2 x King George, Stayers Hurdle, Ryanair etc etc. If he has the right horse, he generally gets the results.

[Kevloaf]

In your defence Archie, as the Kevloaf bandwagon have jumped in on you, I agree with your winning big races statement, when you look at the festival , the likes of Skelton, Tizzard, Fry, all place horses well over the season and have horses that people believe will do well at the fest etc, unfortunately if you look at the stats, the top trainers ( Hendo Mullins Elliott) sweep up
I can’t back a Tizzard horse at the fest because most seem to fail, Skeltons Roksana was fortunate last year , this year put in her place
and this year Allmankind failed to fire
Please feel free to shoot this comment down as you like guys

The Kevloaf bangwagon? Could you not have just agreed with archie without trying to provoke or antagonize?

Do you note down everybody that agrees with me and everyone that doesn't and keep a tally chart?



People agree or disagree based on the opinion, not based on who said it.

[Kevloaf]

If an NH trainer has 200 winners in a season and isn't champion trainer, you have to compliment his placement but seriously doubt his ability to win big races.

I think that some have misinterpreted this. It was not a criticism of his training ability - almost anyone can train a horse and the most important part of the trainer's art is getting a horse in the right race. 200 winners in a season suggests he's getting that right.

The lack of big wins is because the horses that he has mostly aren't up to winning big races. Unfortunately, this is a sort of chicken and egg situation. Because he's developed a reputation for shrewd placing (which may or may not include concealing a horse's true ability), anyone with a very good prospect may decide that that particular skill is not needed for their pride and joy and look somewhere else.

Both Skelton and Harry Fry worked with Paul Nicholls but took different strategies when they branched out on their own. It meant that Skelton was always more likely to train more winners but Fry might just attract better horses.

Have I misinterpreted it, or should you have chosen a different word rather than his ability?


I'm not sure I agree Harry Fry might attract better horses now either.

Not sure exacly when he started but obviously you'd give him Rock On Ruby 2012 even though technically he wasn't the trainer at the time.
Unowhatimeanharry is responsible for 4x of his G1's and is the difference between the two so far.
Bitofapuzzle and If The Cap Fits are the only other G1 winners I can see ... (correct me if I'm wrong)
He had Neon Wolf that I think was going to be top class but didn't win a G1.

Skelton has Roksana and Allmankind as G1 winners so far. Do you expect him to stay behind? I don't.

The comparison to Nicholls is very hard to get away from - I wouldn't be surprised at all for him to get a few proper Grade 1 horses in the next 5 years, and replicate Nicholls' success.

Skelton is like an English version of Gordon Elliott in my head - just years behind

[Eggs]

...Ben Pauling;

Global Citizen to make into a top class 2 mile chaser. On good ground he’d have nearly won the Arkle.

Bright Forecast to embark on a career over fences. He should go right to the top over fences running 2.5 or 3 miles.

Your Darling ‘could be anything’.

https://www.attheraces.com/news/2020/March/28/ben-pauling-focusing-on-next-term-after-difficult-season

[Istabraq]

If an NH trainer has 200 winners in a season and isn't champion trainer, you have to compliment his placement but seriously doubt his ability to win big races.

Did I dream this or up until fairly recently wasn't the trainers championship decided by number of wins ?
I remember Martin Pipe hoovering win after win with average animal but rarely won the biggest prizes.
I could easily be wrong...

[The King Pimm]

I’m not sure if this has already been posted but if not then it’s an interesting read:

https://www.oddschecker.com/tips/horse-racing/cheltenham-festival/20200327-andy-holdings-cheltenham-2020-review-eye-catchers

[archie]

Did I dream this or up until fairly recently wasn't the trainers championship decided by number of wins ?
I remember Martin Pipe hoovering win after win with average animal but rarely won the biggest prizes.
I could easily be wrong...

Funny you should mention Martin Pipe. For me, Dan Skelton is far more like him than Nicholls in that it was a deliberate strategy/business plan to go with quantity over quality at the start in the hope that quality would be attracted by the sheer number of winners. You'd be foolish to be adamant that it won't but it's certainly no gimme that it will.

Ability - noun - possession of the means or the skill to do something.

If you don't have the means, ie the quality horses, it doesn't matter how much skill you have.