2022 Novice Chase Division

[BigChaang]

Good to know Chaaang. Looks like the majority of shops are in London. As a rural northern head I’m limited to what’s Liverpool/Manchester way which is about 45 mins but if I happen to be there I’ll look to grab a standout price. Do you know if the prices are the same as online?

Yeah , DeeBee , definitely the same as online..

[Spectre]

In an effort to broaden my horizons, I decided to look at the DIs of all those who finished in the first three of the WFA novice chases at the Cheltenham festival since 2002. These were my findings;-

Here are the DIs split between age groups

Here are the races grouped together.

The findings essentially show that I spent the morning fishing for white noise. If there is anything to be extrapolated, it is that stamina develops with age and that most connections will have determined a horse's capacity for staying by the time they are old enough to contest the festival novice chases. Being generous, if one ignores the National Hunt Chase, there is vague evidence supporting the notion that lower DIs become more of a factor when the need for stamina increases, and as the samples were relatively small, the NHC figures are skewed by the fact that five of the ten highest winning DIs were recorded in that marathon.

This is compounded by the limitations of DI due to the select chefs-de-race processes. Hot Weld had a DI of 4.33 but his parents won the Doncaster Cup and the West Yorkshire Hurdle. Le Breuil had a DI of 2.50 but was from an Anzillero x Fabulous Dancer cross - both were best over twelve furlongs on the flat. Chicago Grey's DI was 2.11 and he was by Luso (another middle-distance horse) and out of a Lord Americo mare.

Hopefully that was compelling even if not particularly useful.

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head Kotki. As horses mature speed is blunted and stamina takes over. DI in National Hunt horses is useful early in their careers though which is why you have success with the juveniles.

[Cheltenham Novice Chase]

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head Kotki. As horses mature speed is blunted and stamina takes over. DI in National Hunt horses is useful early in their careers though which is why you have success with the juveniles.

Stupid question alert. What is DI?

[Istabraq]

Stupid question alert. What is DI?

Dosage Index…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dosage_Index

[Cheltenham Novice Chase]

Dosage Index…

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dosage_Index

Thanks Istabraq

[Istabraq]

Best of luck understanding it, I leave that to the FJ genius that is Kotkijet…

[Kotkijet]

Following on from yesterday's post on age and DI should be a more informative contribution. For the first section, I have collated some pedigree information pertinent to potential chasing careers for fifty horses. Forty-nine who could make an impact on this season's novice chasing division if going down that route, and Gin On Lime.

The noted relatives have essentially been restricted to those who have winning form over fences which is also fairly useful. There may be instances were a classier chaser at something like 5/3 will be omitted in favour of a glut of useful sorts who are more closely related. Accordingly, should a horse have three classy but distantly related sorts by their names (eg Jason The Militant), that will because the closer damline was bereft of chasers.

Appreciate It 7bg W P Mullins p2-1-0 h4-4-0 (160) 165
Jeremy (Saint Des Saints){31}(3.00) 0.5 Danny Kirwan 2/1 Bingo Bell 5/5 Pindare
Bob Olinger 6bg Henry De Bromhead p1-1-0 h4-3-1 (159) 163
Sholokhov (Zaffaran){6-f}(1.00) 2/1 Very Stylish 3/1 The Railway Man 4/1 Arfer Mole
My Drogo 6bg Dan Skelton h4-4-0 (155) 156
Milan (Midnight Legend){11-d}(0.54) 1/0 My Petra 2/1 Midnight Appeal 2/1 Lake Legend
Galopin des Champs 5blg W P Mullins h6-3-1 (155) 161
Timos (Marchand De Sable){1-w}(0.67) 1/1 Flute des Champs 2/1 Terminator
Klassical Dream 7bg W P Mullins h12-5-3 (165) 171
Dream Well (Septieme Ciel){4-m}(1.11) 1/0 Klassical Way 2/2 Diego du Charmil 3/3 Fiumincino
Quilixios 4bg Henry De Bromhead h6-5-0 (150) 149
Maxios (Lomitas){16-c}(0.63) 3/1 Quicuyo
Run Wild Fred 7chg Mrs Denise Foster p1-0-0 h4-2-1 (144) 149 c7-0-4 (145) 151
Shantou (Talkin Man){3-a}(2.43) 2/1 Mcllhatton
Ferny Hollow 6bbg W P Mullins p1-1-0 h1-1-0 (-) 147
Westerner (Good Thyne){u}(0.68) 2/1 Hersov 2/1 Larks Lad 3/1 Morley Street
Ashdale Bob 6bg Mrs John Harrington h9-3-2 (146) 147
Shantou (Bob Back){5-j}(1.67) 2/0 Glens Music 2/1 Quietly Fancied 3/2 Whatuthink
Bravemansgame 6bg Paul Nicholls p1-1-0 h6-3-3 (149) 154
Brave Mansonnien (Nickname){11-a}(1.67) 2/1 Sagalyrique 2/1 Gray Steel
Stattler 6brg W P Mullins h5-1-3 (142) 147
Stowaway (Old Vic){19}(0.47) 0.5 Binge Drinker 2/1 Gurkha Brave 3/2 Father Matt
Monmiral 4blg Paul Nicholls j5-5-0 (153) 151
Saint des Saints (Mont Basile){16}(0.60) 0.5 Soulongy 2/1 La Landiere 2/2 Drop Out Joe
Vanillier 6grg Gavin Cromwell p2-1-0 h6-2-2 (150) 153
Martaline (Turgeon){6-e}(0.67) 0.5 Vif Ardent 2/0 Vinca 2/1 Vishnu
Goshen 5bg Gary Moore h8-4-0 (157) 167
Authorized (Poliglote){4-i}(0.63) 0.5 Elimay 2/1 Innovate 2/1 Spice
Honeysuckle 7bm Henry De Bromhead p1-1-0 h12-12-0 (165) 166
Sulamani (Lando){16-c}(1.00) 0.5 Colorado Doc 3/1 First Point
Jungle Boogie 7bg W P Mullins h1-1-0 (-) 135
Gold Well (Moscow Society){2-a}(0.74) 2/1 Old Wigmore 3/2 Turpin Green 3/3 Up For Review
James Du Berlais 5chg W P Mullins h15-4-6 (156) 160
Muhtathir (King's Theatre){19-a}(0.87) 1/1 Queen du Berlais 0.5 Goliath du Berlais 2/1 Lyreen Legend
Craigneiche 7brg Nicky Henderson h4-2-2 (142) 143
Flemensfirth (Definite Article){1-d}(3.67) 3/1 Washington Lad 4/1 Lake Teereen 4/2 Lastoftheleaders
Gaillard du Mesnil 5grg W P Mullins h5-3-2 (150) 155
Saint des Saints (Al Namix){1-e}(0.45) 3/1 Napalm du Mesnil 4/2 Soldatino
Minella Drama 6bg Donald McCain p2-0-2 h6-3-3 (143) 144
Flemensfirth (King's Theatre){41}(1.46) 3/1 What A Question 3/2 The Real Article 7/2 Arkle
Thyme Hill 7bg Philip Hobbs h7-5-1 (162) 163
Kayf Tara (Hernando){10-c}(0.67) 1/1 Storming Strumpet 2/0 Lemon's Mill 2/1 Milgen Bay
Gentlemansgame 5grg M F Morris p1-1-0 h4-1-3 (143) 147
Gentlewave (Terimon){8-a}(0.60) 2/2 Kings Ryde 3/1 Well Ridden 4/2 Teeton Mill
Dusart 6bg Nicky Henderson h2-1-1 (141) 146
Flemensfirth (Terimon){4-c}(1.33) 0.5 Simonsig 0.5 Drumcliff 2/2 My Murphy
Pentland Hills 6bg Nicky Henderson h6-3-1 (156) 157
Motivator (Galileo){19}(0.77) 0.5 Camlann 4/4 Captain Cee Bee 4/5 Moon Over Miami
Indiana Jones 5bg M F Morris h5-1-2 (132) 132
Blue Bresil (Laveron){1-s}(3.00) 2/0 Lirfox 3/1 Aupcharlie
The Bosses Oscar 6bg Mrs Denise Foster p2-0-2 h9-2-5 (150) 155
Oscar (Vinnie Roe){8-a}(0.54) 2/1 Noras Fancy 3/2 Mr Antolini 4/3 Bog Warrior
Jonbon 5bg Nicky Henderson p1-1-0 h0-0-0
Walk In The Park (Saint des Saints){9-h}(0.52) 1/1 Douvan 2/0 Folie Star Gate
Barbados Buck's 6bg Paul Nicholls p1-0-1 h5-3-1 (143) 142
Getaway (Epervier Bleu){5-e}(0.75) 0.5 More Buck's 2/1 Big Buck's 2/1 Buck's Bank
Grand Paradis 5grg Mrs Denise Foster h3-2-0 (-) 150
Martaline (Sleeping Car){3-m}(0.57) 0.5 Bob And Co 0.5 Vezelay 2/1 Raz de Maree
Fury Road 7bg Mrs Denise Foster p2-1-0 h10-4-2 (153) 159
Stowaway (Oscar){u}(0.39) 0.5 Rebel Royal 2/1 Fort Worth 3/1 Morley Street
Five O'Clock 6bg W P Mullins h7-2-3 (144) 143
Cokoriko (Kapgarde){12-b}(0.50) 1/2 Rikoboy 2/1 Tyko 2/2 The Saint James
Capodanno 5chg W P Mullins h6-2-3 (147) 153
Manduro (Muhtathir){4-r}(0.54) 1/0 Day Gets Up
Blue Lord 6bg W P Mullins h5-1-3 (148) 155
Blue Bresil (Cachet Noir){7}(1.67) 2/1 Bal Express 2/1 Ditoine 3/1 Mely Moss
Threeunderthrufive 6bg Paul Nicholls h5-4-0 (141) 143
Shantou (Kaldou Star){8-c}(1.80) 0.5 Benruben 2/2 Sanouva 2/2 Nicknos
Southfield Harvest 7bg Paul Nicholls h5-1-4 (138) 140 c1-1-0 (138) 142
Kayf Tara (Garde Royale){19-a}(0.86) 0.5 Southfield Theatre 0.5 Southfield Vic 3/3 Madison du Berlais
McFabulous 7bg Paul Nicholls h9-4-3 (153) 159
Milan (Beneficial){1-h}(0.48) 0.5 Waiting Patiently 2/1 Yankee Jamie 4/4 Ballynagour
Ballyadam 6bg Henry De Bromhead p1-1-0 h6-2-2 (148) 147
Fame And Glory (Bob Back){23-a}(0.53) 0.5 Legal Eyes 3/1 Commercial Artist 3/1 Mass Appeal
Gin On Lime 5bm Henry De Bromhead h3-1-1 c6-3-2 (137) 143
Doctor Dino (Bateau Rouge){u}(x) 0.5 Eminence Rouge 4/1 Cyborgo 4/1 Hors La Loi III
Fakiera 6bbg Mrs Denise Foster h8-2-4 (144) 145
Cokoriko (Network){10-e}(0.23) 4/1 Acajou III 5/1 El Paso III 5/1 Hindiana
Sir Gerhard 6bg W P Mullins p1-1-0 h0-0-0
Jeremy (Authorized){21-a}(1.15) no chase relatives
Farouk d'Alene 6bg Mrs Denise Foster p1-1-0 h3-2-0 (140) 146
Racinger (Ragmar){u}(0.71) 3/1 Viva Bella 3/2 Triolo d'Alene 4/2 Val d'Alene
Mister Coffey 6bg Nicky Henderson h6-2-2 (138) 142
Authorized (Anabaa){16-c}(0.78) 0.5 Myboy (2nd Listed Chase)
Abacadabras 7bg Mrs Denise Foster h12-5-4 (158) 160
Davidoff (Cadoudal){16-c}(0.57) 2/1 Like A Duke 3/1 Poliantas 5/2 Ouiton
Aspire Tower 5bg Henry De Bromhead h8-3-2 (159) 161
Born To Sea (Pivotal){8-i}(2.56) no chase relatives
Flash Collonges 6bg Paul Nicholls h5-3-1 (145) 147
Saddler Maker (Apple Tree){u}(1.00) 0.5 Cesar Collonges 2/1 Neptune Collonges 4/3 Hussard Collonges
Streets Of Doyen 7bg John C McConnell h14-4-2 (139) 140 c1-1-0 (-) 140
Doyen (Satco){8-d}(0.71) 0.5 Tinkers Hill Tommy 2/1 Sackville 2/2 Beroni
Boothill 6bbg Harry Fry p2-0-2 h1-1-0 (137) 132
Presenting (Accordion){14-a}(0.40) 2/1 Frantic Tan 2/1 Irish Raptor 4/2 Black Humour
Soaring Glory 6bg Jonjo O'Neill h6-2-2 (143) 146
Fame And Glory (Saddlers' Hall){14-f}(0.49) 0.5 Three Stars 2/1 Victor Hewgo 3/1 Direct Route
Danny Kirwan 8bg Paul Nicholls p1-1-0 h8-2-3 (133) 137
Scorpion (Saint des Saints){31}(0.60) 0.5 Appreciate It 2/1 Bingo Bell 5/5 Pindare
Jason The Militant 7bg Henry De Bromhead h9-3-3 (157) 160
Sans Frontieres (Desert King){25}(0.55) 4/4 Cloudy Dream 5/5 Total Recall 5/5 Fair Along

I have also done tables for the sires and trainers listed above (including the disgraced Gordon Elliott) with a view to showing their respective records with chasers and hurdlers, along with Impact Values which may indicate whether an entity is more adept at one discipline over another.

These figures were taken from the Racing Post site and show records from the past five years from the countries in which they are based. As such, Willie Mullins' results at Cheltenham won't be included, nor will Paul Nicholls' at Punchestown.


Sires are also from RP but will generally include all runners in Britain and Ireland. The exceptions, owing to limited data, are Brave Mansonnien* (for whom French results were included with British and Irish ones) and Timos** whose results were drawn entirely from French races... one horse at a time... because France Galop does not split the information automatically and while France Sire might, I can't afford to chance a subscription to find out for the purposes of this one day's work...

[charlie]

Kotkijet If ever there was an advert for less is more, you are it! What a post.

[Faugheen_Machine]

Kotkijet I feel like I need to sign up to a dosage index training course!

What do the figures 0.5 and 4/1 mean? I'm guessing 0.5 a half brother/sister? Can't work out the 4/1 though.


Gin On Lime 5bm Henry De Bromhead h3-1-1 c6-3-2 (137) 143 Doctor Dino (Bateau Rouge){u}(x) 0.5 Eminence Rouge 4/1 Cyborgo 4/1 Hors La Loi III

Apologies if you've already explained this in other posts

[Kotkijet]

Hi FM

Do dosage indexes are calculated by establishing where and how many chefs-de-race appear on a horse's pedigree. Chefs-de-race are sires who not only have a great influence on their breed, but their influence can also be categorised by the type of progeny they produce be they precocious speedy sorts or those given to stamina. Each chef-de-race is assigned one or two categories (aptitudinal groups) according to the nature of their influence. These are;-

Brilliant - Nunthorpe/Prix de l'Abbaye
Intermediate
Classic
Solid
Professional - Ascot Gold Cup/Prix du Cadran

Should such sires appear on a horse's pedigree, points are allocated based on the proximity. Sires get 16, grandsires 8, great grandsires 4 and fourth sires 2. Points are split if the sire has multiple categories. The points are tallied and the sum total of brilliant and intermediate, plus half of classic, is divided by half of classic plus solid and professional. The result will be the dosage index. The higher the dosage index, the greater the propensity for speed. The lower the dosage index, the greater the propensity for stamina. In theory of course...

We can use My Drogo as a demonstration on how we reach the Dosage Index.

Here is his pedigree with the chefs-de-race highlighted.


And here is the chefs-de-race list with the above influences also highlighted.



So let's start with the first generation. Milan is not a chef-de-race - which ties into one of the many limitations of the Dosage Index system. While Milan is patently a strong stamina influence, he is not prolific enough on the flat, nor impactful enough on the breed in general, to warrant a place on the list. Incidentally, another notable absentee is Danehill whose impact on the breed has been emphatic. Nevertheless, since his aptitudinal scope is so broad (his offspring encompasses such a diverse range as to include Mozart, Rock Of Gibraltar, Duke Of Marmalade, North Light and Westerner), he could not be placed in any one or two category.

OK, so sire Milan = 0
Grandsires. Sadlers Wells is in C and S so the 8 points are split between the two. Running total;-

B-I-C-S-P
0-0-4-4-0

Great grandsires. Northern Dancer [BC] and Darshaan [S]. 4 points each. Northern Dancer's split between B&C, Darshaan's S gets all 4.

B-I-C-S-P
2-0-6-8-0

Fourth sires. Shirley Heights [CP] and Northern Dancer [BC]. 2 points each. Both split.

B-I-C-S-P
3-0-8-8-1

First half
3+0+4 = 7
Second half
4+8+1= 13

7/13 = 0.53846...

My Drogo's DI - 0.54

As this is a low DI, due largely to the influences of Sadler's Wells and Darshaan, My Drogo is more likely to be a staying type than a sprinter.

Broadly speaking, DI is more applicable to the flat than jumps, largely due to the notion that speed generally gives way for stamina as a horse matures - as discussed in the above posts.

As for the 0.5, 4/1 etc. This is something I have come up with myself as a means of quickly showing how closely related one horse is to another on the damline. The first figure denotes "the x dam is" and the second figure denotes "the x dam of". So instead of saying such a horse's granddam is out of a sister to the great granddam of another such horse, I just write 4/4 (I think... I've confused myself trying to work out how these imaginary horses are related which is why I find the number system so useful).

So 0.5 is indeed half-sibling. 1/1 is full-sibling. 1/0 will be the dam - the first dam is - so

My Drogo 1/0 My Petra = My Petra is My Drogo's dam.

From there, 2/1 would be the second dam is the first dam of.

Monmiral 2/1 La Landiere = Monmiral's granddam is the dam of La Landiere / Monmiral's dam is a sibling of La Landiere / La Landiere is Monmiral's Auntie.

Being a little more adventurous, using this table, we can see that Faugheen is related to Rocky Creek. But instead of going through the rigmarole of describing their relationship, it is simpler to just pinpoint the common ancestor on the damline which would be Marteline. Since he is Faugheen's fifth dam, and Rocky Creek's fourth dam, Faugheen 5/4 Rocky Creek.

[Zachx02]

Does anyone know what happened to Jon Snow by any chance, didn't race all of last season so will keep his Novice status as a chaser, potential to be another NHC contender for Willie if he does come back over fences and won over 2 miles 7 furlongs in his last run over hurdles by 35 lengths

[Faugheen_Machine]

Hi FM

Do dosage indexes are calculated by establishing where and how many chefs-de-race appear on a horse's pedigree. Chefs-de-race are sires who not only have a great influence on their breed, but their influence can also be categorised by the type of progeny they produce be they precocious speedy sorts or those given to stamina. Each chef-de-race is assigned one or two categories (aptitudinal groups) according to the nature of their influence. These are;-

Brilliant - Nunthorpe/Prix de l'Abbaye
Intermediate
Classic
Solid
Professional - Ascot Gold Cup/Prix du Cadran

Should such sires appear on a horse's pedigree, points are allocated based on the proximity. Sires get 16, grandsires 8, great grandsires 4 and fourth sires 2. Points are split if the sire has multiple categories. The points are tallied and the sum total of brilliant and intermediate, plus half of classic, is divided by half of classic plus solid and professional. The result will be the dosage index. The higher the dosage index, the greater the propensity for speed. The lower the dosage index, the greater the propensity for stamina. In theory of course...

We can use My Drogo as a demonstration on how we reach the Dosage Index.

Here is his pedigree with the chefs-de-race highlighted.


And here is the chefs-de-race list with the above influences also highlighted.



So let's start with the first generation. Milan is not a chef-de-race - which ties into one of the many limitations of the Dosage Index system. While Milan is patently a strong stamina influence, he is not prolific enough on the flat, nor impactful enough on the breed in general, to warrant a place on the list. Incidentally, another notable absentee is Danehill whose impact on the breed has been emphatic. Nevertheless, since his aptitudinal scope is so broad (his offspring encompasses such a diverse range as to include Mozart, Rock Of Gibraltar, Duke Of Marmalade, North Light and Westerner), he could not be placed in any one or two category.

OK, so sire Milan = 0
Grandsires. Sadlers Wells is in C and S so the 8 points are split between the two. Running total;-

B-I-C-S-P
0-0-4-4-0

Great grandsires. Northern Dancer [BC] and Darshaan [S]. 4 points each. Northern Dancer's split between B&C, Darshaan's S gets all 4.

B-I-C-S-P
2-0-6-8-0

Fourth sires. Shirley Heights [CP] and Northern Dancer [BC]. 2 points each. Both split.

B-I-C-S-P
3-0-8-8-1

First half
3+0+4 = 7
Second half
4+8+1= 13

7/13 = 0.53846...

My Drogo's DI - 0.54

As this is a low DI, due largely to the influences of Sadler's Wells and Darshaan, My Drogo is more likely to be a staying type than a sprinter.

Broadly speaking, DI is more applicable to the flat than jumps, largely due to the notion that speed generally gives way for stamina as a horse matures - as discussed in the above posts.

As for the 0.5, 4/1 etc. This is something I have come up with myself as a means of quickly showing how closely related one horse is to another on the damline. The first figure denotes "the x dam is" and the second figure denotes "the x dam of". So instead of saying such a horse's granddam is out of a sister to the great granddam of another such horse, I just write 4/4 (I think... I've confused myself trying to work out how these imaginary horses are related which is why I find the number system so useful).

So 0.5 is indeed half-sibling. 1/1 is full-sibling. 1/0 will be the dam - the first dam is - so

My Drogo 1/0 My Petra = My Petra is My Drogo's dam.

From there, 2/1 would be the second dam is the first dam of.

Monmiral 2/1 La Landiere = Monmiral's granddam is the dam of La Landiere / Monmiral's dam is a sibling of La Landiere / La Landiere is Monmiral's Auntie.

Being a little more adventurous, using this table, we can see that Faugheen is related to Rocky Creek. But instead of going through the rigmarole of describing their relationship, it is simpler to just pinpoint the common ancestor on the damline which would be Marteline. Since he is Faugheen's fifth dam, and Rocky Creek's fourth dam, Faugheen 5/4 Rocky Creek.

Thanks very much for explaining. I found that a fascinating read.

I think it goes to show there are several ways you can look at a race and DI is one I'd never really considered. I'm interested to learn more.

[ComplyOrDie]

That's some serious posting Kotkijet although fairly baffling to myself, especially at the levels you take it, however it is all very fascinating and greatly appreciated

[Kotkijet]

Cheers lads. Appreciate it... or is it appreciated?

Again, I think due to the nature and limitations of dosage indexes, they may be a subject of interest more for the purist than the punter. Particularly when it comes to the more mature who compete as established national hunt types. This is a point illustrated by the less than concrete findings from the novice chases, and was touched upon in a post regarding last season's Spa hurdle. Juvenile hurdlers would be a slightly different matter as the graphs in the OP of the juvenile thread show a discernible correlation between DI and success in the division.

https://www.fatjockey.com/forum/fat-jockey-horse-racing-forum/national-hunt-racing-20-21/309591-juvenile-hurdlers-2021-22#post309591

One example would be that when comparing those with DIs between 0.31 and 0.80 against those whose DIs are between 2.50 and 3.50, the difference between the mean RPRs amounts to roughly a stone and a half which is no small figure. As such, despite the imperfections inherent in DI theory, it still offers a broad guide as to a young horse's potential for getting the trip over hurdles. While it may be possible that findings of substance can still be extrapolated in jumps races featuring older horses, I am of the opinion that the impact of physiological, environmental development would blur and offset the tangibles set by genetic predispositions.

To further illustrate one of the limitations of DI, one of the potential chasers listed above, Craigneiche, has a DI of 3.67 which is higher than that of Battaash (3.00). While 3.00 still leans firmly towards pace, no sire from Battaash's first three generations of sires appear on the chefs-de-race list. This means that the influences of Dark Angel, Acclamation, Lawman, Royal Applause, Machiavellian, Invincible Spirit and Night Shift are all absent from his DI calculations. With the exception of Night Shift, it could be argued that all of the aforementioned would at least straddle the "Brilliant" category - leading to a DI much higher than 3.00.

Conversely, Craigneiche's DI is inflated by the presence of Hoist The Flag [BI] and Indian Ridge [I] on the third generation. However, if we were to place the remainder of the sires into hypothetical categories that I am making up as I go along, it might look something like this.

1st Generation
Flemensfirth - [S] - ten furlong horse, not enough marathon types but most got at least twenty furlongs and several did well over the Gold Cup trip
2nd Generation
Alleged - [SP] - Arc winner, produced multiple Derby and Leger winners, grand/damsire of Grand National winners
Definite Article - [CS] - best flat horses were stayers, but while his jumpers could perform over three miles, that was the limit for many
3rd Generation
Hoist The Flag - [BI] - Outstanding 2yo with truncated career. Alleged aside, most of his better horses were speedy sorts
Diesis - [C] - Top 2yo. Got some Leger sorts but best flat horses were middle distance types. Flintoff could just about get a trip but jumpers mostly best at two miles
Indian Ridge - [I] - Sprinter who, Definite Article aside, got sprinters and milers
Beneficial - [S] - middle distance horse, out and out jumps sire, progeny best at around three miles
4th Generation (will just leave as is)
Tom Rolfe - [CP]
Prince John - [C]
Sharpen Up - [BC]

So with the above information, Craigneiche's DI profile would be;-

3-4-12-28-5
13/39
DI = 0.33

This would indicate that Craigneiche, as per his performances and running style, should have little difficulties getting three miles over jumps. There are, however, a couple of caveats;-

1) The apparent reason many stallions do not appear on the chefs-de-race list is that their influence is not especially pronounced. i.e;- Were Galileo and Gladiatorus to be on the same generational rung, Galileo's influence might have more of a bearing. Doesn't make intuitive sense to me but then again, I am not a geneticist.
2) Craigneiche's amended DI makes it look as though he could win an Eider and a Welsh Grand National in the same season which would be a stretch. Were all of the novice chasers listed above be subject to the same process, the average DI would probably become considerably lower.

Perhaps there could be value in establishing a chefs-de-race list that is more pertinent to national hunt racing?

This would obviously be an extremely time intensive undertaking, but one I would be happy to work on if given a living wage... After all, I am currently homeless and unemployed and while William Hill are hiring in Stockport, they are looking for more appropriate candidates to work in their shops... Despite my having a basic understanding of horse racing along with the experience of essentially running a currency exchange bureaux for over a year prior to uni... So next time you place a bet at a Billy Hills in Stockport, bear in mind that the person restricting you to ?2.50 each way has forgotten more about the sport than I will ever know

[Fouroverthrutwo]

Cheers lads. Appreciate it... or is it appreciated?

This would obviously be an extremely time intensive undertaking, but one I would be happy to work on if given a living wage... After all, I am currently homeless and unemployed and while William Hill are hiring in Stockport, they are looking for more appropriate candidates to work in their shops... Despite my having a basic understanding of horse racing along with the experience of essentially running a currency exchange bureaux for over a year prior to uni... So next time you place a bet at a Billy Hills in Stockport, bear in mind that the person restricting you to ?2.50 each way has forgotten more about the sport than I will ever know

Have you considered a career in racing journalism? Your posts are informative, eloquent and engaging. You should give it a go.