Has anyone had a Cheltenham 2022 punt yet

[Spectre]

Was festival prize money a topic of discussion pre covid ?
I don't remember owners/trainers criticising the pots in 2019 and 2020 and I can't think of a horse who was held back for the Irish Spring festivals on prize money alone....

Yes definitely. There's been disquiet about the prizemoney for the handicaps falling behind other big pots in the UK and Ireland for quite a while. Rather than talking about it, JP and Gigi definitely made a stand in March though.

[archie]

Two points.

Concentrating prize-money in a few very large pots runs completely against the aim of involving more people in ownership. A horse has to win 3 or more ordinary races every year to break even and making that equation worse will just reduce the incentive to get involved.

Very high prize-money in the Cheltenham handicaps will have the double whammy of
- having the fields stuffed with JP and Giggi horses where the top rated are there to give the plots a better chance.
- underlining the temptation to run promising novices in handicaps rather than the novice championships.

The Irish National is a much bigger and more historical race than any handicap at Cheltenham. Long may that be the situation.

[Istabraq]

Yes definitely. There's been disquiet about the prizemoney for the handicaps falling behind other big pots in the UK and Ireland for quite a while. Rather than talking about it, JP and Gigi definitely made a stand in March though.

Fair enough, I must have missed that noise...

[Spectre]

Two points.

Concentrating prize-money in a few very large pots runs completely against the aim of involving more people in ownership. A horse has to win 3 or more ordinary races every year to break even and making that equation worse will just reduce the incentive to get involved.

Very high prize-money in the Cheltenham handicaps will have the double whammy of
- having the fields stuffed with JP and Giggi horses where the top rated are there to give the plots a better chance.
- underlining the temptation to run promising novices in handicaps rather than the novice championships.

The Irish National is a much bigger and more historical race than any handicap at Cheltenham. Long may that be the situation.

There are two sides to that coin Archie, and whilst connected they are two different issues. Cheltenham wants/needs to position themselves as the 'World Championships' of jumps racing. Falling behind other big Festivals simply diminishes that position and dilutes the quality.

The point you make is right and correct though, and is a symptom of the bigger problem racing has. How much money is flowing to bookmakers and how little is coming back? It's been a significant issue for pushing towards two decades now, and the ROA have constantly been pushing as you know. The problem is the various factions can't get their act together, 'together', so to speak. Weak leadership in racing has been the problem, combined with dubious conflicts of interest. They've also been afraid to tackle the bookmakers bullshit spout about losing money on racing. Racing underpins their entire model, and everyone knows it. Whilst it's not the only thing, the levy is the answer, and it always has been. I've also been very critical of racing's ability to attract sponsors in the past, and even more critical of the racecourses themselves, who are often appalling at marketing themselves for racedays, and even worse for marketing themselves for non-racedays. All of these things need to be right to correct the broader problem, and in my opinion the answer isn't to dilute prizes at Cheltenham and Aintree for that matter.

[archie]

There are two sides to that coin Archie, and whilst connected they are two different issues. Cheltenham wants/needs to position themselves as the 'World Championships' of jumps racing. Falling behind other big Festivals simply diminishes that position and dilutes the quality.

Handicaps have no place in a true 'World Championships'. Increasing their prize-money will not make for better or more competitive races. If anything it will just make the handicap range more restricted. Going that route, we may as well have 'B' races at the open championship distances instead. Same weights as the championships but restricted to horses rated 150 or below.

[Saxon Warrior]

I havent heard anyone complain about having Handicaps at Royal Ascot, the pinnacle of flat racing.

Dropping handicaps from Cheltenham would be a disaster for attracting ownership of NH horses, and for syndicates, multi-owners.

I believe they are very important for the World Championships of Jump Racing, and Flat Racing.

Given the money that Cheltenham generates they have the chance to have the best handicap prizes of the season, at the Festival, and through the season, if they wish to.

They seem not to want to promote their handicaps like that though, which is their call.

[somer1]

Just chucked a couple of free bets at American Mike any race 20/1 with Skybet. Won its ptp on the 10th Apr (3m) by 20l when with Monbeg Partnerships and since sold to the Moran's at the Tattersalls Cheltenham April sale for 195k and gone to Gordon Elliott's.

[Lobos]

Just chucked a couple of free bets at American Mike any race 20/1 with Skybet. Won its ptp on the 10th Apr (3m) by 20l when with Monbeg Partnerships and since sold to the Moran's at the Tattersalls Cheltenham April sale for 195k and gone to Gordon Elliott's.

The next Samcro/Envoi Allen ???

[somer1]

Just chucked a couple of free bets at American Mike any race 20/1 with Skybet. Won its ptp on the 10th Apr (3m) by 20l when with Monbeg Partnerships and since sold to the Moran's at the Tattersalls Cheltenham April sale for 195k and gone to Gordon Elliott's.

Asked WH to price up any race thinking i might pinch 25s but they added at 16s

[Lobos]

Asked WH to price up any race thinking i might pinch 25s but they added at 16s

You let the cat out of the bag...........he's clearly a wonder horse!!

[Cheltenham Novice Chase]

I can only imagine the bookies took one hell of pasting at the festival because I agree the opening prices seem much shorter this time. I do think a more patient and targeted approach may be required this year. They seem to be trying to cover the going-early scattergun approach by limiting the odds for the big money purchases and those horses of well known connections. At some point some prices for some fancied horses will have to expand and, when they do, we should be ready. A below expectation performance or an unexpected fall would suffice or simply the need for the bookies to offset some liabilities. Moreover, at some point prior to the festival the fancied horses will likely face one another and they can’t all win. Firms like B365 will also expand the prices of losers to reduce cash out opportunities. Patience is a virtue.

The tricky bit is identifying the winners!

[Saxon Warrior]

I can only imagine the bookies took one hell of pasting at the festival because I agree the opening prices seem much shorter this time. I do think a more patient and targeted approach may be required this year. They seem to be trying to cover the going-early scattergun approach by limiting the odds for the big money purchases and those horses of well known connections. At some point some prices for some fancied horses will have to expand and, when they do, we should be ready. A below expectation performance or an unexpected fall would suffice or simply the need for the bookies to offset some liabilities. Moreover, at some point prior to the festival the fancied horses will likely face one another and they can’t all win. Firms like B365 will also expand the prices of losers to reduce cash out opportunities. Patience is a virtue.

The tricky bit is identifying the winners!

Agree.

No point backing a short priced loser 9 months before the Festival.

We only control things whilst the money is is in our own pockets.

[nortonscoin200]

Which is something that the BHA and Cheltenham need to have a long hard think about. When big owners like JP and Gigi amongst others are swerving the Festival for Fairyhouse they should be concerned.

Or maybe the new plan to address the balance between UK and Irish winners is to put the Irish owners and trainers off travelling by putting up terrible prizemoney for some of the races at Horse Racing's premier Festival.

Agree entirely Spectre.

I think there's a real danger that Cheltenham will lose its position as the UK's premier jump racing festival unless they whack up the prize-money quite significantly - and I don't just mean topping up by 10 per cent to replace the money they withheld this year.

I'm sure many people will maintain Cheltenham will always be at the top of the pyramid because of its history - but I disagree. Money talks and with the best horses, trainers and jockeys mostly based in Ireland a big shift could take place if Cheltenham don't protect their status.

I certainly think prize money for the handicaps need a major boost - and for the championship races as well.

And if the Jockey Club, the bookies and other interested parties say we just can't afford it - my reply would be "nonsense".

Cheltenham is jump racing's flagship event - diminish it's status and the whole sport suffers, at least on the mainland.

But ditching/diminishing the handicaps is most certainly not the answer.

[archie]

Not a single person of the ordinary racing public (as distinct from professional gamblers) goes to Cheltenham primarily for the handicaps and, without reference, not many could name this year's handicap winners never mind last year's. Of course they have a (subsidiary) place but an extra ?10k on the first prize would make zero difference to attendance.

[Saxon Warrior]

I don’t think ‘handicap prize money’ vs ‘punters attending the races’ - was an argument anyone was trying to put up - unless I am wrong (and I could be)

For me it’s

* do they want the handicaps to be average for the Grade, and used as fillers in between the Grade 1’s,
Or
* do they want each handicap to be the best in its Grade (like the Grade 1’s are)?

Looking at the prize money for some of the Festival handicaps, it does look like they’re using some of the handicap races as fillers, between the Grade 1’s.

Thats okay if that’s the aim, but if the aim is to have the best handicap hurdles and handicap chases at the Festival then it’s going to cost them a bit more in prize money to get to that place.

Its more a thought and talking point - definitely not a dissing of the Jockey Club.