Tiger Roll - Gold Cup ?

[TigerRolllllll]

No bigger Tiger fans than me....have watched the re-run of the National once or twice

Even if he had highest rating would not be sure about GC route personally......Tiger's jumping style is low and clips tops and it works fantastically on CC and National course.....but he did hit a few when won the 4m

And if he were to win another National, he would be as famous in history as Arkle and very few others as a true great

Will cheer him wherever he turns up......he and rise of Bryony Frost (and Rachel Blackmore) are best things happened to National Hunt in years

[Kevloaf]

In the impossible and meaningless arguement about "which horse is better than which".... where would people put Tiger Roll in a head to head with Red Rum?



Red Rum with a GN record of 11221 when the races was 'less competitive' but 'more of a test' is still an uncomprehendable achievement for me (as a man only following from circa 2010)

Tiger Roll is the best National Horse in my time but that's hardly worth making statues for....


Any thoughts?

[mayo]

There were many better horses that tiger since 2010. Just refer to ratings.

[Quevega]

In the impossible and meaningless arguement about "which horse is better than which".... where would people put Tiger Roll in a head to head with Red Rum?



Red Rum with a GN record of 11221 when the races was 'less competitive' but 'more of a test' is still an uncomprehendable achievement for me (as a man only following from circa 2010)

Tiger Roll is the best National Horse in my time but that's hardly worth making statues for....


Any thoughts?

Peer to peer I'd say Red Rum's achievement is best.
But Tiger Roll would beat him in a race as I believe the sport and science has advanced so much. So I'd say Tiger is the better horse by a few pounds.
The difference in fences is an other issue altogether. Impossible to say how each would have compared with regards jumping.

The Tiger Roll 'jumps low' thing is a bit of a misnomer, as he gets over them economically enough. So if he gets a bigger fence he's probably jump low over them also.

Although I'd accept his scope may have a lower max height than some. On the other side of that argument it's probably more about athleticism than size I suppose.

On Mayo's point. I've read a few articles suggesting Tiger's run was best on ratings for over 40 years since Crisp ran Red Rum close off top weight. And I'd go along with that as I can't think of a better one myself.

[Quevega]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8AqzF31kB4

Pitman explains the ride on Crisp vs Red Rum 1973.
Track record beaten after 40 years.
Crisp off 12 stone, red rum 10st 5lb. Lescargot (2 time gold cup winner) 25 lengths back in third.

Probably the greatest National ever.
I was 2.

[Kevloaf]

There were many better horses that tiger since 2010. Just refer to ratings.

Many better Grand National horses than Tiger Roll since 2010?

Get in the bin?



I didn't mean Tiger Roll is the best National Hunt horse since 2010... he'd be in the top 50 probably.

[TigerRolllllll]

Many better Grand National horses than Tiger Roll since 2010?

Get in the bin?

H
I didn't mean Tiger Roll is the best National Hunt horse since 2010... he'd be in the top 50 probably.

e recorded highest rating since Crisp when second to Rummy......so TR is best in decades...its official

[TigerRolllllll]

In the impossible and meaningless arguement about "which horse is better than which".... where would people put Tiger Roll in a head to head with Red Rum?



Red Rum with a GN record of 11221 when the races was 'less competitive' but 'more of a test' is still an uncomprehendable achievement for me (as a man only following from circa 2010)

Tiger Roll is the best National Horse in my time but that's hardly worth making statues for....


Any thoughts?

Racing needs heroes.....and we have TR,,,,,4 wins Chelt 9in 3 diffs cars) and 2-3 Nationals....love to see statue at both courses. Much publicity as he can get......its all brilliant for our sport

[Kevloaf]

e recorded highest rating since Crisp when second to Rummy......so TR is best in decades...its official

Best Grand National horse in decades.

He isn't the best actual National Hunt horse in decades though is he?

[Kevloaf]

...and my point about the statue and only being the best GN winner I've seen is just a (poorly worded) sentence - the point I was making is recency bias plays too much of a part for me to have a proper, proper opinion on how he sits in the echelon of GN winners (as I only really got into it in 2010)... I was asking people who've seen more than a decades worth what they think and hoping for som,e insight that isn't absolutely loaded with recency bias.

How good Tiger Roll is for the sport, shouldn't really be a factor in the question I was asking... I have no quibble with that

[mayo]

Hard not to love Many clouds

[archie]

There has definitely been a ratings 'creep' over the last few years and I don't think that it's fair for a horse to have the same rating for both park and National/Cross Country fences.

This season's ratings started to go wrong with the over-rated King George and, because of that, they've had to go high with Cheltenham and Aintree. Do I think Al Boum Photo and Kemboy can run to 175/174? Yes. Do I think they did at Cheltenham and Aintree? No.

In today's money, Tiger Roll could be 170 over National fences but I doubt he'd be worth more than 165 in a normal chase. However, we'll probably never know because he hasn't jumped a park fence in public for nearly 18 months. For comparison, Cadmium came 4th in a handicap in February off 147 yet he won the Topham easily off 152 and is now upped to 162. I'm prepared to concede that the nature of the track helped him but he took to the fences so well that his new mark is just not representative of his recent form.

[somer1]

Do we think that the Tiger would get away with his jumpping if he had to jump the same fences that Rummy was jumpping?

[Kevloaf]

There has definitely been a ratings 'creep' over the last few years and I don't think that it's fair for a horse to have the same rating for both park and National/Cross Country fences.

This season's ratings started to go wrong with the over-rated King George and, because of that, they've had to go high with Cheltenham and Aintree. Do I think Al Boum Photo and Kemboy can run to 175/174? Yes. Do I think they did at Cheltenham and Aintree? No.

In today's money, Tiger Roll could be 170 over National fences but I doubt he'd be worth more than 165 in a normal chase. However, we'll probably never know because he hasn't jumped a park fence in public for nearly 18 months. For comparison, Cadmium came 4th in a handicap in February off 147 yet he won the Topham easily off 152 and is now upped to 162. I'm prepared to concede that the nature of the track helped him but he took to the fences so well that his new mark is just not representative of his recent form.

Yes, it's almost impossible to give an accurate rating to any Cross Country race compared to a standard chase.

I can't really think of another way of doing it other than having a specific XC rating and there aren't enough of the races to make that worthwhile?



Would it be fair to say, Cadmium can only really win a race over hte national fences going forward? Will need to run and get his mark down in conventional chases before backing winning again at Aintree

[archie]

Yes, it's almost impossible to give an accurate rating to any Cross Country race compared to a standard chase.

I can't really think of another way of doing it other than having a specific XC rating and there aren't enough of the races to make that worthwhile?



Would it be fair to say, Cadmium can only really win a race over hte national fences going forward? Will need to run and get his mark down in conventional chases before backing winning again at Aintree

Cadmium's style of running makes it hard to see him staying much further than 2m5f so the Topham is the only race over the National fences that looks suitable. After the race Willie was saying that we'd see what he could do in graded races between 2m and 2m4f. He's entered in the 2m G1 at Punchestown and I think there's a G2 at the Fairyhouse Easter meeting that may be in the mix. He's been fourth in a G1 and second in a G2 so it's not unreasonable to go for either of them.