Horses preferences/Specific racecourses

[Istabraq]

Spectre

Hadn’t seen that RUK course walk, fascinating, thanks for posting

[EnvoyAllen]

Taking this to Cheltenham specifically, this is worth a watch for anyone who hasn't seen it, and Ruby in part of it explains why a right-handed jumper will always find it difficult at Cheltenham.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i596M4wsHkQ

Horses have their own traits and quirks, some of which can be disadvantageous at courses with certain characteristics. Surely that's obvious to anyone that understands racing?

Yep Mr Spectre, I do remember watching this a week before last year’s festival. It’s a very good watch, and I remember recommending it to a few others. I still feel it really touches more on the characteristics of the course and where your horse really needs positioning at certain junctures of the track.

Whilst I totally agree that certain horses ‘traits’ and ‘quirky characteristics’ might mean they might not be suited to a certain course/right/left handed, I still believe that the elite horses will find a way.

Kev made the case for Clan Des Obeaux being such an example as a dual grade 1 winner to support the idea that he simply doesn’t ‘get’ Cheltenham - and his trainer has always said as much. But the key thing here is - is that because Clan Des Obeaux has a certain running style that prohibits his ability to run well at Cheltenham/left handed, or, is Clan Des Obeaux actually limited in ability generally? His career record so far of 8 wins in 24 suggest a a good horse, but not an elite one - his consistency reminds me of a horse like Delta Work - you’re never really sure what you’re going to get. It might be a grade 1 win, the next race he might be found wanting.

Might it be the case that a horse such as Clan Des Obeaux be a ‘flat track bully’, to coin a cricket phrase? Kempton is the course Henderson for example always uses (or Newbury) for his best novices as it’s a lovely easy track to start off on. Perhaps it might be the case (and I’m not advocating it is, just suggesting another point of view) that Clan is an example of a horse who’s ‘just good’ in that given a relatively flat course, he shines very brightly, but when a more extreme challenge is presented, he’s not up to it?

The piece of ground at Epsom was chosen 250 years ago because it presented all of the best 3 year old colts in England to prove their speed and stamina due to its undulations, camber and topography. It’s the ultimate test for a flat thoroughbred.

After watching Shishkin’s two novice chases this season (in a lot of detail, and watched Ruby Walsh dissecting them on Racing Tv), he’s shown that on more than one occasion he met the fence on the wrong foot, and yet adjusted himself to make good jumps on each occasion. De Boinville has said he leaves the reins alone and lets him make that decision. Horses of inferior intelligence might potentially just plough into that same fence. We all see it day in, day out.

When Roger Federer was in his absolute pomp circa 2003 - 2014 he’d often come up against a huge 6’6” young talent capable of blowing him away with a barrage of 140mph aces - Federer worked out his plan and would win in 90 mins for the loss of just a few games. He’d then face a competitor like a Nadal, a tennis player of such unique skill with his ground shots, and a completely different test. And yet still, Federer would readjust totally and win.

So yes, I accept horses have their quirks. They might not like going right or left handed, But I’ll always believe (as is the case in all sports at elite level), the very, very best just find a way. Whatever the challenge, the world’s finest, equine or otherwise, find a way to ensure their nearest competitors remain behind them at the end of their event.

[Rhinestone_Cowboy]

I feel like you misworded your original question EA, if you had referenced ‘elite’ horses in the first paragraph I think there would be close to unanimous agreement that the very best can perform anywhere under most circumstances. However the first paragraph refers to horses in general and I think there is probably general agreement that for those not considered elite certain preferences are crucial to enabling such horses to get their noses in front.

I know many shrewdies including plenty of folk on here see an angle for a horse that may have dropped in the ratings but has won over C&D at a similar rating before which can make them a decent play at big odds.

In a nutshell I think you have to be careful not to let your convictions for elite horses cloud your judgement on the importance of preferences for all other horses in training.

[Kevloaf]

So yes, I accept horses have their quirks. They might not like going right or left handed, But I’ll always believe (as is the case in all sports at elite level), the very, very best just find a way. Whatever the challenge, the world’s finest, equine or otherwise, find a way to ensure their nearest competitors remain behind them at the end of their event.

So back to my original question back to you.... how many of these very, very best are there?

How many elite level horses do you think there are? (or should be)?

Your opening post was that "it's absolute rubbish", and we've ended up with you talking about how good Shishkin and Envoi Allen are.... again?



I feel like we've all been lampooned.

[Rooster Booster]

I feel like you misworded your original question EA, if you had referenced ‘elite’ horses in the first paragraph I think there would be close to unanimous agreement that the very best can perform anywhere under most circumstances. However the first paragraph refers to horses in general and I think there is probably general agreement that for those not considered elite certain preferences are crucial to enabling such horses to get their noses in front.

I know many shrewdies including plenty of folk on here see an angle for a horse that may have dropped in the ratings but has won over C&D at a similar rating before which can make them a decent play at big odds.

In a nutshell I think you have to be careful not to let your convictions for elite horses cloud your judgement on the importance of preferences for all other horses in training.

100% agree. I was just about to post something very similar but not as good and you beat me to it

[Rooster Booster]

100% agree. I was just about to post something very similar but not as good and you beat me to it

That must prove no hard feelings from the racing days

[Quevega]

So back to my original question back to you.... how many of these very, very best are there?

How many elite level horses do you think there are? (or should be)?

Your opening post was that "it's absolute rubbish", and we've ended up with you talking about how good Shishkin and Envoi Allen are.... again?



I feel like we've all been lampooned.

Loving the use of that word.

[Garrison Savannah]

Well even by that definition, presumably examples such as Desert Orchid, are not elite horses?

Bizarre conversation to be honest.